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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Judith, May 20, 2013.
Many claim that illness comes from the fall. Why? What scripture reference is there about this?
Is illness a sign of things being good? Is it the design God had from the beginning? Realize that illness comes from corruption in the body - not from perfection.
So yes, I'd say that illness is a result of the fall.
Disease and death entered into the world with the fall of mankind. Just as the pain of childbirth, for example, befell mankind. Even after the fall, men lived for a long time. Compare the years lived by mankind before the flood to the average lifespan of an American today. Over the generations, corruption of the physical flesh has continued to grow. Even today, new diseases are being reported. One of the things that we can look forward to when He calls us home, will be bodies no longer corrupted from the effects of Adam and Eve's fall from grace.
To look forward to the time with the lion will lie again down with the lamb. Man's fall brought death, even to animals, when He sacrificed them to clothe Adam and Eve's naked bodies.
Paul says that his infirmity was from Satan (2Cor. 12:7-9).
Also, we know from Job that it was Satan that brought about Job's sickness (Job 2:7).
We also know that sickness can come from sin (James 5:14-15).
First the bible does not say things were perfect, just very goog. Also if we want to understand that as perfect then Lucifer must have been created perfect and yet he sinned. If Adam was perfect he also sinned. I don't think holding a line that creation was very good (perfect) can stand the test that illness could not have been in the creation when we look at satan and Adam as sin took place in the garden not outside of it.
I am aware of scripture that says sin brought death but where does it say it brought disease? The pain of childbirth was part of the curse, there but no mention of disease. Why could not the things that cause diease be part of the creation but have no ability to kill man in his created state until after the fall when his body started breaking down and becoming more amd more unable to deal with those things?
In Pauls case we do not know if "his infirmity " was an illness or not.
Now Job we do know that satan caused his illness. So now my question. Does this mean all disease comes from satan?
(1) There are many things that aren't specificially addressed within the Bible. God did not outline every way that flesh (both human and animal) can die. Nor did He address every change He made in flesh to allow pain and death to happen. Pain of childbirth and by extension death during childbirth is just an example that was recorded. There wouldn't be any need for faith, if every detail of everything, including all that Jesus said and did, had been recorded.
(2) "Disease" is a broad term that encorporates many aspects that diminish lifespans and brings about death of individuals. In the broadest sense there are only 4 ways to die. Accident, disease, suicide, and life taken by another. Of the 4, 3 are pretty clear cut and dried. The 4th, disease, is a catch all term for means of death that aren't included in the other 3.
a. Death from gluttony, whether food or strong spirits is a one type of "disease". Isn't it pretty obvious that sin is root cause of someone dying by "drinking themselves to death"? Yet, we say they physically died from liver disease.
b. With the fall, man became capable of killing. So did animals. So did plants. There is no mention of anything actually dying until Satan's "Hath God said?" tested man's free will to choose. Why does it matter whether poision mushrooms, e-coli, and black widow spiders existed before the fall? With the fall, they became capable of killing, just as mankind did. Just as lions became capable of killing lambs and wilderbeasts.
c. e-coli used in b. is representative of what we call "diseases" when people sicken and die from exposure to yeast/fungi, bacteria, and virus. Mushrooms, spiders, and some microscopic life produce toxins that create "diseased" bodies that die. Here, we're getting into the mechanics of how causitive agents bring death to flesh. ie diseases not rooted in sin of point a.
d. The Bible doesn't mention specifically the diseases brought about through wear and tear on aging bodies, as the relate directly to the fall of man. Hearts, lungs, kidney's, brains, grow too weak & tired to function anymore. Here, we can also lump in genetic mutations that also shorten life. The latter is progressive. The more generations man becomes removed from Adam (created without defect) the more genetic based diseases grow.
Those are just 4 classifications of "disease". It doesn't matter, if the agents were present before the fall. The fall ACTIVATED them. For example, all broad types of bacteria may have existed before the fall. The capability for some of them to kill was unleashed as a result of Adam's failure to obey God. Other types of bacteria remained good and beneficial to mankind. -- Another example of both good and evil existing in this world.
Bringing this long winded post to a close. It doesn't matter whether e-coli were part of the creation of Eden or created by God after an apple was eaten. If they were present, the original sin, affected them, too. They became capable of killing, just as Cain became capable of killing his brother.
Excellent, just excellent!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I would however point out some things. To say that killing could not happen until after the fall has absolutely no scriptural supported. If Adam could eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, (not an apple) then it is also reasonable to conclude that murder could have happened. Remember Eve lied before the fall so murder could have happened also. They were not created super man and they did have a free will. I believe they could have died from things like accidents or even malice acts like murder.
In regards to sickness I think what happened is this. We know that the creation was called very good. We also know everything that would ever be created was created in those 6 literal days. I believe that bacteria that could possibly kill was also created. However because they (the Adam's family) were eating plants, the plants had medicinal properties that possibly protected them from what would normally make sick or kill.
After the fall they were booted out of the garden and no longer had access to those healing properties, but because their bodies had already built up certain immunities they lived long periods of time and passed those qualities onto many of their children until the flood when everything was wiped out leaving men even more vulnerable to disease.
I do not believe in the creation that physical death was impossible as I do not believe they were created super men. I believe it just did not happen until after the fall.
Thank you for your reply and for further fleshing out your thought process that was, apparently, embedded within your opening post. FWIW, it would have been helpful, had you included that information, initially.
Please provide scriptual support for your premise, as stated. Depending on how you elect to support your position, scriptual rebuttal may be awaiting your reply.
One thing is the tree of life which was in the garden. They lost access to it once booted out. We also know in the Rev where it speaks of a tree that heals the nations Rev 22. There is also a passage in Rev. 2. I assume the garden tree had the same properties.
Let me clear up a little misconception.
There WAS pain before the fall.
Pain can be put on a gradient – there are different levels of it.
Pain teaches us to avoid harmful circumstances. Without pain you might cut or burn yourself and never know it… it's presence is protective.
In Genesis (3:16) God said that Eve's pain in childbirth would be multiplied / increased.
Before the fall there would have been pain with childbirth, just not as much as afterwards.
Judith, you ask for some verses, There's been some good posts so far.
I'll give you a few thoughts and a couple verses.
The Hebrew word for sickness is closely related to the word used for weakness – in many instances it's meaning can only differentiated by its context. In some places the translation "sick" or "weak" can be interchanged without effecting the meaning of the passage (see its first use describing Jacob in Genesis 48:1).
He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; [Or sickness] and as one from whom men hide their faces, he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he has borne our griefs [Or sicknesess] and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. Isaiah 53:3–4 (ESV with note)
..."If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, your healer.” Exodus 15:26
You shall serve the LORD your God, and he will bless your bread and your water, and I will take sickness away from among you. Exodus 23:25
[also see Ex 23:25ff; Deut. 7:12ff; 28:58ff;
When you debate, please don't claim that others say what they did not speak. There is a big difference between did not and could not. My premise is that it did not because there is no scriptural reference that it did.
Further, to make your point, you are speculating and misapplying the events of the fall, as recorded. The fall was a single event. Satan tempted. Eve and Adam yielded to temptation. Where do the scriptures say that Eve lied?
Genesis 3: KJB
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Murder is a sin. According to scripture, the first sin comitted by mankind, was when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating forbidden fruit.
Next, Adam was created in God's image. To this layman, that means that Adam was created without physical defect that could bring about an end to his life. Remember, your opening post was about illness. Yet, to try to make your point, you are bringing in accidents and murder, even though to my knowledge neither of these are recorded as having taken place before the fall.
Scriptures disagree with you. God continued to create after the first 6 days. The first evidence of this follows. There are many examples in the Bible where God did continue to create. Plagues in Egypt. First recording of the 10 Commandments, etc.
Gen 3: KIB
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
You've ignored my previous point. Plants can kill. Example was mushrooms. Adam and Eve could partake of all of the plants in Eden, with one exception. Whether mushrooms, bacteria, virus, spiders, etc. were created before or after the fall, there is no indication in scriptures, that any of these could harm mankind before the fall from His grace. All God created was good. Therefore, there was no need for "medicinal properties" as there was nothing to make them "sick or kill". To say otherwise is adding to the scriptures.
Adding more that is not recorded in the scriptures. Adam and Eve, the only two people alive at the time of the fall, were created in the image of God. Thus, they had no defects. All that was in Eden was good for them, except Satan and one tree. They had no need to "build up immunities." To state they built up immunities implies they were exposed to what was bad for their health while in the garden. What evidence can you present to show there was anything, other than Satan, that was bad for them?
-- The first evidence of physical death of any flesh, for any reason, comes here.
Gen 3: KJB
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
God, Himself, brought about the first death, the first sacrifice in His creation, as a result of man using his free will to sin. God, Himself, made the final sacrifice -- shedding of blood -- to atone for the original sin.
Continue to read Genesis. Note the long lives of the decendents of Adam and Eve. In chapter 6, you'll find this verse.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
God changed the number of years that man lives. Thus, the theory of plants in Eden being the cause of long lives, also fails at this point.
In closing, what is your point with this thread? What are you trying to accomplish? Circular reasoning going on? Why debate on impossibilities and speculations rather than debating based on what is actually taught as truth in the scriptures?
Your OP was about illness - disease. First post:
Yeah, I noticed a whole lot of that, OT.
Scripture is often bent into what we want to see or what fits our theological model.
The problem here is we don't know where Eve got her information.
Adam's instructions appear to have been given before Eve's formation.
Did Adam, as many parents will do to their children, tell Eve "Don't eat, yeah, don't even touch that tree."
Perhaps Eve was only relaying the instructions given to her.
It really does not matter whether it was Eve or Adam who lied. A lie was told before the fall.