I'm no Calvinist but...

And who's fault is that? Who had the power to change man's nature? Who did change man's nature?

First, the scriptures say Jesus will draw all men to him.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Second, you contradict yourself. If Jesus does not draw a man, then how can they reject him? If someone does not invite you to a party, can you say you rejected their invitation?

Unconditional would also mean that God doesn't pass by us because of something bad in us. So, sin is not the reason people are going to hell, the reason people go to hell is because God chose them to go to hell. Whatever man does good or bad has nothing to do with it.

No you don't, you go to hell because God didn't choose you.

Then sin has nothing to do with going to hell, and choosing Christ has nothing to do with going to heaven. You go to heaven only because God chose you, you go to hell because God passed you by. Your actions in this life have nothing to do whatsoever with whether you go to heaven or hell.

Then God is partial and a sinner. He is being kind to some persons and cruel to others without just cause.

 

It's man fault. God has the power to change man's nature.

You might want to look up the definition of "draw." It means to attract to cause to come. If a person doesn't come, he wasn't drawn. John 12 is not saying all people in meaning every single individual because if all were drawn, all would be saved. You can't change the definition of words. All means all of a context. Draw means that the person was drawn and came. A person that doesn't come wasn't drawn.

how can man reject if Jesus doesn't draw a man. Again, you are changing the definition of draw. Draw doesn't mean to just attract, or pull or plea, it means to attract to cause to come.

You are speaking about double predestination, something I do not believe in. Man is on his way to hell naturally because of his sin. God chooses to save some out, not based on anything good. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that God chose some to hell. Predestination is always in reference to saved people.

Not sure you point in this, I don't believe either one of us believes that. I know I don't. You were on your way to hell, God chose you out of that.

Not true at all. You go to hell because of your sin. You speak almost as if God is required to give people a chance to go to heaven. Hell is by default. We all deserve hell. God in his mercy saved some, the rest will go exactly where they were headed.

Example: You probably have a bill to pay before the end of the month. Why do you have to pay the bill? It is because you have received a service or commodity of some type, like you power bill. Now, it would be illogical for you to blame me that you have to pay your light bill. Would you say, well, since jbh won't pay my bill, I have to pay it. It's jbh's fault I have to pay the bill. See, you have to pay the bill because you received a service, not because I didn't choose to pay your bill for you.

Any Scripture to backup such a charge against God? Was God being partial when he chose the Jews to be his chosen people? And I have never said that god is cruel without a just cause. Where did you get an idea like that? God sends people to hell because of their sin. That is what they, and everybody, deserves.

 

Drawn

The Holy Spirit is in the words of Jesus and Jesus word was not His own but the Father who sent Him.

This is how the Father draws us to His Son and you can walk away from the drawing.

We should know following the crowd does not mean we are drawn by the Father.

This scripture tells us who will come.

John 6:
45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

If you go against God will, what He say's will happen to them will, they will be condemned.

I praise God for this

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths ]

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.



7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.



Matthew 11:25
[ Rest for the Weary ] At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Romans 10:11
As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Don't trust in man, just come to Jesus and trust in Him and you will not be disappointed, God has made you a promise

 

How can you walk away if being drawned

How can you walk away if being drawned by the Father?

By being wise in your own eyes then the truth is hidden from you.

 

If you don't come, you were not drawn.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draw

 

Whosoever

Whosoever can come, but if you decide to be wise in your own eyes and turn away from learning from the Father than yes you are not being drawn, because God has hidden the truth from you, but if you humble yourself before God and God will show you the way.

Don't you just want to praise God that all men have hope, but pride goes before a fall.

 

Hi JBH;
I tried to drag a fish in but he had other ideas
MB

 

Humbling

If we start preaching about being humble before God instead of preaching predestination that you can't even comprehend. You will find what God can do to the hearts of men

 

Yes, preaching the gospel is much more important.

 

Yes, whosoever wants to be saved can be saved. I believe in whosoever will.

 

Watch your blasphemy Winman. God, since He created everyone has the perfect right do do anything He wants with His creatures. He has the right to pass by some and select others. He doesn't need your permission because you (like the rest of us) are a worm of the dust. We all deserve condemnation. So if He chooses to mercy some and harden others -- so be it.

When you disagree with a Calvinist it's best not to call God names like "sinner". Just a helpful reminder.

 

All Verses Are Taken From The TNIV

You sound like the objector Paul was addressing in Romans 9:19: One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"

You're not on safe ground here Winman.

Romans 9:11 :"before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad -- in order that God's purpose in election might stand."

Hmm, are you willing to yield to Scripture Winman?

 

You are being totally unbiblical by saying unscriptural things like that.

Every single one who is drawn is united with the Lord -- not one will be lost.

That's a wonderful passage. But it certainly goes against your line of thinking from the majority of posts you have made over the years.

The passage says that that the preordination of the Lord preceeded their belief.

 

It's an impossibility.

 

False choices. It's not an either/or situation. Predestination is a Bible doctrine, is it not? Are you wiser than the Lord? Have you determined that though it is taught repeatedly in the Word of God it should not be proclaimed along with the whole counsel of God?!

 

It is not an impossibility as shown in scripture. Many men are called and drawn but resist.

Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

In this parable by our Lord Jesus Christ he compares the kingdom of heaven to a marriage feast. In verses 3 and 4 he clearly states that men are called who refuse to obey and come. And in verse 7 he shows that God is angry at these persons and destroys them. So, God does not destroy men for his pleasure as some teach, he destroys them for just reasons. And at the end of this parable he says that many are called, but few chosen. This shows the chosen or elect are those who obey and come when called.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

And I will show you another story from scripture that shows just like a fisherman, some fish get away, even from the Lord.

Matt 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Every person who has ever fished knows some get away. You can hook them and be reeling them in (drawing them), but fish can fight back and often do, and many times they escape. The same with men.

Luke 5:3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.
4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

This story in Luke 5 is not about fish, it is about men. It is to show us that we cannot serve the Lord in our own power, but must depend upon the Lord.
But also in this story it shows that not all men will come to Christ. These fish were caught in the net, they were drawn in, but the net burst and many escaped. Yes, many were caught, but not all.

The scriptures do not show Irresistable Grace as taught by Calvinism, they teach the opposite, that man has the ability to resist the Holy Spirit and often does.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

You cannot argue that everyone who is drawn will come (well, you can, but it is error). The scriptures show many times that the Lord calls men, draws them, but they resist and will not come.

And if you argue that everyone who is drawn comes, then you cannot say that those who do not come resisted, as they were never called. If you were not invited to a wedding in the first place, you cannot say you refused the invitation.

 

Jesus said,"You did not choose me, but I chose you...." thats the divine side"sovereign". Whoever is thirsty let him come....ect. thats the human side "responsibility". I see both in scripture and some how God knows how it weaves together. I truly cannot camp on one side when both are clearly presented in scripture.I think those who clam to have it all figured out is only fooling themselves.

 

Draws all men

I am sorry but God after Jesus is lifted up draws all men, after His glorification according to scripture and also according to scripture the only one's who will come is those who listen and learn from the Father. So if you do not humble yourself you can not come, because God has hidden the truth from them.

I do agree with you before the cross, but after that I do not, Jesus opens the door to all men.

We are chosen in Christ , you were not chosen apart from Him. I agree about those before the cross who were chosen to bring the hope to all men.

Don't you want to praise God that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and we are His messenger of the Good news.

To start we must humble ourselves before God and listen and learn from Him. If they do not the can not be drawned to the Jesus or even come. It is those who listen and learn from Him that come that are drawned

Jesus word is Spirit and life and the Fathers who sent Him, and only through His word we can be given the faith to be saved. You cannot not even be regenerated until you receive the word. Those who do not get it are going straight to hell, but they do have a hope and it is the words of Jesus that we are messengers of it.

It is Jesus and those who are in Him that have been chosen before the foundation of the world and if God didn't know who they were He wouldn't be God. I cannot even explain that because men have changed the words foreknowledge , and world and whosoever and all to fit thier doctrine, all I do is waste my breath

The whole world has hope through Jesus and I praise God every day for the Good news.

 

Two problems as I will explain below. Drawn means they come. Context of John 12 is both Jews and Gentiles, not all men exclusively.

You need to understand what the term "drawn" means. Go grab a dictionary and look up the word. It will help you in understanding what the term means.

Here is a link to the definition.

Someone that is drawn is someone that has come. If the person doesn't come, he wasn't drawn. Drawn does not equal attract, or pull as some here are trying to make it mean. It means to attract to cause to come. You have both parts of the definition, not just one.

Ex: We drew a big crowd. Are was talking about the ones we invited? No. Are we talking about the ones that were thinking of coming but didn't come? No. We are only talking about the ones that came. They were the ones that were drawn. You can't change the definition of words.

Many are called, but few are chosen. you didn't quite quote it correctly. What you said isn't in Scripture. It is a result of a change in the definition of the term. It doesn't say people are drawn but resist. It doesn't make any sense. It would be like saying someone came but resisted. Well, did they come or not? Were they drawn or not?

And yes, people resist the Holy Spirit every day in reference to the rest of your post.

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 12 also cannot mean every single person exclusively because then all would be saved. John 6 very clearly states that no one can come unless drawn by the Father, and that one will be raised up in the last day.

Who said that God didn't know who his elect were before the foundation of the world.
What is foreknowledge. The only time it is specifically mentioned, it is a whom, no what that is being referenced. No where does it say foreknown faith, but those whom he foreknew. And i have no problem with God loving the world. That is why He sent his son into the world to save the world of sin. And whosoever is no problem whatsoever with unconditional election. No body, with the exception of a small few, that believes in unconditional election believes that people will want to be saved, but can't.

 

That is correct! Thank you. 'All anthropos'. Not every man, woman, and child there is, ever was, or ever will be. Just means 'all races', 'all anthropos'.