I'm Shocked (or maybe not)

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by rlvaughn, Feb 14, 2005.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    I'm shocked. I'm been a member of the Baptist Board since its old days, and one thing that I have seen through all this time is that some people are not content to disagree on the issues, but seem to feel they must pass judgment on the hearts of those with whom they disagree. The thread that has most recently brought this to my attention is the "Elaborate Churches" thread.

    I disagree with Jack Graham and the staff of Prestonwood, and evidently their philosophy of ministry that calls for the elaborate church plant that is being discussed. Nevertheless, I have no reason to suppose they are insincere or that they are not following what they believe to be scriptural. My difference is on practice, and has nothing to do with their motives, and does not suggest they are not doing anything good. Some who agree with and are defending Prestonwood feel that those who disagree are simply little, petty, jealous men. Maybe we are. But why do you jump to that conclusion rather than first supposing that maybe we have a sincerely held religious belief (just as they do) which happens to be different from their sincerely held religious belief. I don't suppose all the judgment passed was only on one side either, but, of course, would tend to notice that of those with a differing position.

    This question is for anyone who feels they regularly answer this way. Why? If you tend to see those who doctinally oppose your view as folks having a heart problem (jealousy, insincerity, envy, laziness, greed), rather than an honest difference of opinion, why do you do so? Do you have a gift of judging? Is it a debate tactic? Do you quickly post emotional responses without thinking? All of the above? None of the above? Just some questions to get things moving.

    This thread is not to rehash about Prestonwood, but to investigate the mentality we use in opposing viewpoints differing from our own.
     
  2. Ben W

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    Unfortunatley my friend that is a feature of most bulletin boards especially the Christian ones. Yet at the same time there are more really nice people in here than there are others trying to spoil it!
     
  3. I Am Blessed 24

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    If I judged everyone on the BB that I have a difference of opinion with, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.

    I prefer to discuss the issues, not the posters.

    FYI, that is a BB rule.

     
  4. av1611jim

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    I really don't know why this happens.
    Oftentimes I am VERY opinionated. I try to go to the Scriptures when forming my opinions on any given matter, however, sometimes it is not so clear as I would like. Because of that ( I think) I have been on the receiving end of such criticisms. I angers me of course, but what can you do? It is SOOO easy to be misunderstood in this kind of exchange. (Message boards) We should all understand that it is oftentimes IMPOSSIBLE to fully communicate in this medium since inflection of voice, facial expression and body language are not present.
    Also I think oftentimes, (MANY times) one's preconcieved notions play into the discussion and this is hard to eliminate.
    Have I been guilty in judgement of ones' heart in a discussion? Perhps, but I don't remember doing it, and I try very hard not to think, "Oh this guy is lost, ignorant,jealous, envious, egotistical, arrogant or whatever" I try to apply such adjectives to the attitude displayed rather than the persons who may display it. (Does that make ANY sense? LOL)

    It is unfortunate that we Christians are plagued with the same passions of the lost. We can't be automatons and emotionless, but on the other hand, we should display some self-control. And I think if we are yielded to the Holy Spirit, we will.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  5. rlvaughn

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    I guess I'm not so much concerned about whether someone is violating a BB rule, or that they are offending someone with their post. I'm trying to understanding what is going on in someone's thinking when their first response seems to assume that their "opponent" (in debate) is wrong based on some ulterior motive rather than just being wrong based on misunderstanding/misinterpretation of scripture. Does that question make sense?
     
  6. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    It could be personal or they are just the type of person who has to be 'right' all the time.

    "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."
    Proverbs 15:1
     
  7. dianetavegia

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    John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."


    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.


    1 John 4:16b God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
     
  8. ktn4eg

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    I believe that there is an important principle for each of us who are called by the name of Christ that is set forth in John 21:21-22:

    21 Peter seeing him [John] saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
    22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, WHAT IS THAT TO THEE? FOLLOW THOU ME.

    (emphasis added)

    The principle as I see it is this: Jesus does not call us to judge His calling of another brother or sister (or, by extention, another one of His ministries). He calls each of His children to FOLLOW HIM.

    We are not ultimately responsible for the stewardship of His calling someone else, but we are responsible for the stewardship of His calling to us.

    This does NOT mean that we should not be concerned about the welfare of our brothers and sisters in Christ, or one of His ministries; however, we are not going to be ultimately held to account for how those individuals (or ministries) conduct themselves.

    We shall, however, be held to account for our stewardship of the calling that He has given us.

    That being said, don't you think it would be more advisable for each of us as God's children to spend more of our time and energies being more concerned about the quality of our stewardship of the calling that He has given to each of us than that of someone (or something) else's calling?
     
  9. Craigbythesea

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    I do not believe that anyone is questioning the motives of the people who are being critical and judgmental of other Christians and churches. Motive has nothing to do with it—but their attitude does. Neither is this just a matter of differences in opinion. There is VERY much more involved here.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. rsr

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    rlvaughn said:

    "I'm trying to understanding what is going on in someone's thinking when their first response seems to assume that their "opponent" (in debate) is wrong based on some ulterior motive rather than just being wrong based on misunderstanding/misinterpretation of scripture. Does that question make sense?"

    I think so; frequently these tempests arise when someone is quick to assign the basest motives possible to someone with whom we disagree. Sometimes it is indeed a debate tactic, but not one that is calculated to generate more light than heat.

    In these situations, it cannot be that someone is just honestly "wrong." If you were a real (fill in the blank: Christian, Baptist, American ...) you would see things my way. Thus, to disagree is not just be wrong, it is to be at least willfully ignorant and, at worst, apostate.


    "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

    — Oliver Cromwell
     
  11. rlvaughn

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    So then, Craig, attributing envy and jealousy to someone who does not agree with Prestonwood is not assigning a motive? You don't think it's possible to have a different belief, philosopy and approach from Prestonwood and be honest about it, without having jealousy or some other motive (or even attitude if you want to call it that)?

    Other examples include attributing greed to those who through their Bible study come to believe tithing is not a New Testament principle (even though not knowing how much they might give); or attributing faithlessness to those who choose a bivocational, instead of full time, ministry. This idea goes on & on on this board, from all points of view. Don't take this to mean that I think everyone's opposition to and disagreement with Prestonwood is honest and sincere. But why wouldn't our FIRST response be to think it was, until proven otherwise? I expect that's what each of us want for ourselves.
     
  12. Craigbythesea

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    We are not speaking the same language here—it has been some years since I spent any time in Texas. :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. rlvaughn

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    Well, I've never been to the "west coast", but's let give it a go.

    Craig (that's you [​IMG] ), does not attributing (ascribing; laying to someone's account) envy and jealousy to someone mean that you assign those two things (envy and jealousy) as a cause (in this case the reason bringing about their statements)?

    Or put another way - Do you think everyone who disagrees with Prestonwood must be little, petty, envious, jealous? Or is it possible that someone who disagrees might disagree because they disagree with Prestonwood's ministry philosophy (while not being envious)?

    If this is still not discernable, let me know which parts, and I'll try again.
     
  14. Craigbythesea

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    No, other possibilities are that they are suffering from a neurological disorder, a hormone imbalance, an inadequate knowledge and understanding of the New Testament, or a number of other abnormalities or deficiencies.

    What does having public restrooms and running water and other extra-biblical features have to do with a church’s ministry philosophy?

    [​IMG]
     
  15. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    &lt;sorry, changed my mind - not going to respond&gt;
     
  16. I Am Blessed 24

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  17. Thankful

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    Perhaps if a person would say why he/she disagrees, then the other person would not have to guess or make judgment.
     
  18. rlvaughn

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    Thanks, Craig. I'm glad I was able to move enough toward the west coast to get your answer. We'll have to wait on doctors' reports to make any determinations concerning possible physical or mental disorders. But I think we are in agreement that inadequate knowledge and understanding of the New Testament, on the part of one party or the other, is a cause of the differences in doctrine, opinion, practice and approach.
     
  19. rlvaughn

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    Thankful, I think that is it good for a person to say why they disagree. But I do not think, even in the absence of that, that anyone is forced to guess or make judgment.

    But what about when they do say so, and someone still "makes judgment"? Take a look at the "Tithing Challenge" thread, for example, where several people stated why they disagreed (tithing not a NT doctrine, etc.) and yet some still "made the judgment" that greed, stinginess, etc. was the cause of being against tithing.
     
  20. tyndale1946

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    The scriptures say come let us reason together!... One of the hardest things in my life was giving up the I'm right attitude. I have debated my issues in the past and it just use to set me on fire... The fact of the matter is I wanted to WIN!... Nobody I felt liked to lose. I moderated the C/A Forum and The Baptist History Forum for awhile but when Charlotte died the fire went out.
    She was not one to debate or really disagree with anyone even me, All these isism and schisms she left to other people. Her basic principle was to serve God by serving God's people. Doctrine has its place and I feel we can agree to disagree and disagree to agree. Though we may not agree the other person has the christian right to their oponion.
    Why should we as christians be caught up in a mindset of I WIN?... Can I WIN and my brother and sister WIN at the same time?... Is that what the scriptures are cramming it down anothers throat?... Can I surrender to God and let God carry out what he needs to do wihtout me being a hiderance to the body of Christ?
    I say this with tears in my eyes because brothers and sister I speak from experience. When I was about 15 years old I just turned 59, I witnessed 22 churches disagree and split right down the middle in the state of California, each claiming we are right Lord. So who was really right and could each side have both been wrong?... Does the Lord rejoice and the angels sing when his children fight?
    The outcome of it all was we wandered over 30 years in the wilderness split between the household of God. God did continue to feed us BUT and I stress this highly... What greater blessing would God have bestowed upon us if we would have ironed out our difference according to scripture and gone on.
    WHO REALLY WON!... NO ONE!... WE ALL LOST!... God left his stiff necked children to their own devises... There was fellowship among the two factions... Eleven churches on either side but brother and sisters on opposite side could not fellowship or they would be excluded from the church... Ah yes the Primitive Baptist way.
    Let me tell you a little bit of our way and let you decide. In the PB Churches those caught in any sin... be it drinking or moral sins that bring reproach on the body of Christ and the church are excluded... Not excommunicated!... Exclusion means they are removed from the church until they using mundane terminology clean up there act. Then they can make restitution and are lovingly with no hard feelings brought back into the church... Btw and this is where the problem started... The same church they were excluded from and not another!... Other churches took them in and overrode the action of their sister churches anfd that is what split the churches right down the middle. That is our way even though others may disagree.
    Another thing even though that brother or sister has lost their home in the church the church does not turn their back on them because then restoring that member back into the fold is given utmost priority... Because the fact of the matter is we ALL walk with feet of clay... No one is perfect in the eyes of God. Any of US can fall at anytime... No one is better than his brother or sister even if they think they are.
    God's people are a peculiar people and I know I have been long winded but sometimes we have to be very careful with judgement... The scriptures say... That judgement begins at the house of God... It also says as far as judgement... Let those least esteemed judge!... Why is that?... Why those least esteemed?... Why not those in the fray?... In the fire?... In the heat of battle?
    Those in the those conditions have one thing in mind WINNING! I WIN!... I'm Right!... The least esteemed want the LORD TO WIN!... Want the Lords banner of forgiveness and loving to be raised. Want the Lord praised and honored in their actions of kindness. The word I'M SORRY is at times hard to say [​IMG] The least esteemed understand that we are ALL sinner and sometimes the lessons are hard but we ALL have to go through them.
    I think of ALL the things I have gone through in my life and I can tell you that Lazarus has come forth many times to newness of life. The final ressurection will be glorious but I have come forth from the tomb many times in my walk with the Lord. I am continually learning that I have so much to share with others and not to be so judgemental as I have been in the past. You would think that with ALL the gifts our heavenly Father gives us we would ALL learn to get along and not pass judgement at all... We we come to that we are no longer on the board but trying our new wings :D ... Halleluiah!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     

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