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Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whatever, Jul 2, 2005.
Does God love Satan? Does the Bible say?
The Bible does not say specifically that God loves kittens, puppies or Satan. But God does show that Lucifer was in the Garden of God, on the mountain of God, The Covering Cherub, PERFECT in all his ways until iniquity was found in him, full of wisdom etc.
In Job 1, 2 and when God asserts that Job is a righteous man - Satan challenges God in the council and God does not respond with "I hate you - get ready to be zapped".
I want to know how iniquity was found in a being that was perfect in all his ways. So many conundrums man...
Satan tried to take over the throne of God. This was his iniquity.
TS...I know that. I said I want to know how iniquity was found in a being that was perfect in all his ways. I don't understand how perfection can become imperfection. If it can, then it was never perfect to begin with. I am not doubting it happened, I am only saying it seems to go against logic as far as I know.
Wow! Whoa! Hmmmm! You don't think? Could it be? Possibly could.... even the ANGELS have Free Will?
Isaiah 14:12 -15 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Ezekiel 28:12-17 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
The scriptures tell us that Satan is the father of lies, what do the scriptures tell us about how God feels about lies and liars?
Look at Revelations 22:15
"For without are dogs, and sorceres, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolators, and whosevere loveth and maketh a lie."
OK! But while getting to Revelation 22:15 I just stumbled across Revelation 20:10 "Then the devil, who led them astray, was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their torture will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever."
I'm not sure what your point is. Satan has always been the great deceiver, and the choice has always been to follow God or follow Satan.
In Eden Satan did not force the forbidden fruit into Eve's mouth, He whispered in her ear, she followed him. In the desert, Satan whispered in Christ's ears, and Christ followed God instead.
May I ask, why you brought all of this up? Is it important you, on some theological ground, to determine God's feelings toward the fallen angel?
[ July 03, 2005, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]
There has been a running debate here about whether God loves all men or whether He loves only believers ("the elect"). I have not come to a conclusion yet, because while some scriptures certainly indicate His love for all, other scriptures seem to me to call that love into question. Then there is also the question about how it was loving for God to create a being that He knew would be punished forever, when He did not have to create that creature at all. One thing is for certain - if God does love Satan, and if He does love the eternally damned, then love does not mean exactly what I have always been taught.
Anyway, if you say that God, who "is love" according to His revelation, does not love every one of His angels, then I do not see why it is necessary to say that He loves every single person. Yet that assumption seems to drive a lot of people's interpretation of certain passages. They assume that God cannot relate to one person differently than another person, because that would make Him a "respecter or persons", but they generally acknowledge that God does relate to different angels dfferently.
Does that make sense? I am not sure that I can explain these thoughts well. Like I said, I have not come to any conclusions yet. I am just trying to think it through.
I simply responded to the OP question by showing one example of why God does not love satan.
Satan WAS NOT, IS NOT, CANNOT be man, so the followup questions about Does God love all Men or just believers, has nothing to do with the OP!
Even so, Scripture tells us "for God so loved the world...." Seems to me if you insist that the whole bible is true, you would likewise accept this truth!
Thank you for explaining what you meant for me.
I have no problem with Satan is not man.
I do agree God loves the whole world.
I would say that God created as he saw fit, for his pleasure and for his purpose, and he created perfect.
Romans 9:22 (KJV) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
God makes a vessel of wrath, and a vessel of mercy (Rom 11:22; 9:21-23). God has more than the attribute of love. There is also justice, and wrath.
See the ones God calls a liar.
Romans 3:4 (KJV) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
WHATEVER SAID:There has been a running debate here about whether God loves all men or whether He loves only believers ("the elect"). I have not come to a conclusion yet, because while some scriptures certainly indicate His love for all, other scriptures seem to me to call that love into question
BROTHER JOE: Whatever, consider this in your quest for truth:
"8) The love of God is repeatedly presented in the scriptures as being a cause producing an effect in those receiving it. However, the effect is never universally observed; therefore, the cause cannot be universally applied.
a) I John 4:19 - We love him, because he first loved us. Hence, our love for God is an effect whose cause is God's love for us. It would be logically impossible to honor God's love toward us as the effectual cause of our love toward Him if others receiving the same love have responded by hating God (Numbers 10:35, Psalms 21:8, John 15:25, Romans 1:30).
This text also exposes the error of those who construe the doctrine of special atonement as excluding persons who love God and who seek His mercy and salvation. The verse asserts that any person who loves God is also loved by God and is therefore embraced in the special atonement of God.
b) Titus 3:3-5 - For we ourselves were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; The love, kindness and mercy of God are presented here as causes whose effects are the washing of regeneration, the renewing of the Holy Ghost, and a subsequent change in nature. However, it would be logically impossible to honor God's love as producing these effects if others receiving the same love forever failed to respond accordingly.
c) Ephesians 2:4,5 - But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved Hence, God's love is presented as a cause whose effect is deliverance from death in sins to life in Christ. God's love could not be credited as the effectual cause of this deliverance if others under the same love forever remained dead in sins. " (A Defense of The Doctrine of Special Atonement by David and Wilford Pyles, http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/partaton.html)
God Bless you and have a a happy 4rth!
[ July 03, 2005, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: BrotherJoe ]
Another vailid point to ponder for your future further consideration:
"7) Several scriptures teach that those under the love of God also receive His corrective chastisement. However, the scriptures also teach that not all experience this chastisement; consequently, not all are embraced within His love.
a) Revelations 3:19 - The Lord said: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. If God loves all mankind, then why would the qualification, as many as I love, be necessary here?
b) Hebrews 12:6-8 - For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons: for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards and not sons. Both this and the previous verse assert that all who are loved of God are also chastened of God; however, the present verse allows that some are without this chastisement, and are therefore without the love of God.
c) I Corinthians 11:32 - But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. The previous verses assert that all the beloved of God are also chastened by Him, but in the present verse, those that are chastened by God clearly do not include those in the world who will ultimately be condemned. Since those to be condemned are not chastened of God, then neither are they loved of God.
d) Psalms 93:12,13 - Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O Lord, and teachest him out of thy law; That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked. This verse makes a distinction between the chastened of God and the wicked. Since all who are loved of God are also chastened of God, one is necessarily lead to conclude that the wicked cannot be loved of God. " (A Defense of the Doctrine of Special Atonement, By David and Wilford Pyles, http://www.pb.org/pbdocs/partaton.html)
If you are really interested in this topic I would suggest reading the entire essay from a critical point of view. I believe it holds the test of scripture! God bless you!
In Romans 9 God shows mercy on vessels of wrath AND on the vessels of Mercy with longsuffering and patience!!
It "depends" on God who HAS mercy. The Calvinism THINKS it can insert a place where "God does NOT have mercy" into Romans 9!
I would argue that "God so LOVED THE WORLD... yes REALLY!!" is good enough to make the point.
"NOT WILLING FOR ANY TO PERISH" also makes the point in 2Pet3
And "I HAVE NO PLEASURE in the death of ANYONE" makes the point.
God not only weeps over the lost - He WARNS the saints NOT to rejoice in any way over the judgment condemnation of the lost!
When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.
God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!
Lament over Jerusalem
God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.
God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.
ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!
God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!