It's difficult to have a conversation on this board if you have a life because by the time you get back to respond the thread has closed....:laugh: I left off here speaking with Jarthur on the subject of John 6, Total Depravity and Original Sin the this thread... Most Calvinists would know a real Arminian if they bit them on the nose. I affirm OS, but not the full implications of TD. I explain it more fully HERE> General or Special Revelation...it doesn't matter with regard to this point, all men are WITHOUT EXCUSE. Why? BECAUSE they COULD see, hear, understand and know the divine attributes and eternal qualities of God. Total Depravity's implication is that men are born deaf, blind and unable to see, hear and understand thus giving them the perfect excuse. The mistake Calvinists make is to assume that being HARDENED (given over to your continually rebellious nature) is a condition from birth rather than something people "grow" into or "become." Read Acts 28 with me: 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" Now, please notice 3 things in this passage. (1) Some were convinced by WHAT HE SAID, but why didn't the others believe? Because their heart had "BECOME CALLOUSED" or hardened. (Same as the verse we already looked at in John 12:39-41) (2) What could they have done IF they had not 'become calloused?' Paul tells us, "Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn..." This shows the unique condition of the JEWS as ones who have been privy to God's revelation and have rejected it continually. (3) Is that a condition of all men from birth as TD suggests? NO. They BECAME Calloused, they weren't born that way and look at Paul's comparison with the Gentiles who haven't "become calloused"...."they will listen." So, you can see that the reason Israel in unable to believe is NOT because they are non-elect reprobates born in a condition that can't respond to God's revelations. It is because THEY have been able for years to respond to His revelations and they refused thus making their hearts GROW HARDENED. At this time in history God has sealed them in that hardened state by hiding the gospel from them in parables (Mk 4 - which would completely unnecessary if TD and UE were true), and He has blinded their eyes and gave them a 'spirit of stupor.' Why? So as to (1) bring redemption through Calvary and (2) provide for the engrafting of the Gentiles. God is in the process of hardening Israel and grafting in Gentiles. Calvinists make the error of using passages that are speaking about the condition of Israel at this time and applying it to the innate nature of all mankind. If I'm wrong then please explain the practical difference between a man who has "become hardened" and one who is just "totally depraved?" Can one of them see, hear, understand and turn to God? Is there ANY real distinction between them in your system?