IMB BF&M2000 issues etc.

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Bible-boy, May 20, 2003.

  1. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy
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    In a thread in the "News Affecting Baptists Worldwide" section, which is now closed due to the three page limit, Charlesga stated:

    While I agree with the statement about the Gospel, can someone tell me how this statement can be reconciled with 2 Tim. 3:16-17:

    That passage says that we should expect all of our missionaries (pastors and Sunday School teachers etc.) to be teaching the whole counsel of God. Additionally, the Great Commission does not tell us to simply make converts to Christianity, it commands us to share the Gospel, baptize new believers, and make disciples. How do you make disciples if you don't teach them the complete Word of God?

    [ May 21, 2003, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
  2. donnA

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    I agree, you start with the gospel and salvation, but then you have the responsability to continue to teach them how to live the christian life. (discipleing) Anything less is irresponsable, and not what we as christiasn are called to do. Therefore those teaching need accountability for what they do teach.
     
  3. Charlesga

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    Do you not allow for differences in interpretation? Do you have to believe that women must be submissive in order to be a disciple? What about different views on the rapture? If I disagree with you, am I not a disciple? I would not say that you are not a disciple of Christ simply because you have a different interpretation of a paticular Bible passage.
     
  4. Bible Student

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    Hi all,

    Just a thought:

    Joh 16:13
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    If we are truly lead by the Holy Spirit of God there would not ever be differences in interpertation. My Bible tells me that God's Spirit will "guide you into all truth."

    The problem is "sin". We allow our understanding of God's word to be clouded by our desires and most of the time we will not just take God's word at it's face value.

    Richard
     
  5. FearNot

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    Do you not allow for differences in interpretation? Some things in Scripture are not specific that can allow interpretation. An example would be Jonah, whale or big fish? No deffinate answer, not really needed. On the other hand, when Scripture says that a wife is to submit to her husband, there is no other way to interpret that. She either does or doesn't. The husband is told to love his wife, either he does or doesn't.

    What about different views on the rapture? The rapture, as given in Rev. has some details excluded. Details that we really don't need to know. We do not know the cause of death of the dinosaurs, and we do not need to know. Deatails for qualifications for pastors are thorough, submission of wives is clear from Scripture. These are detailed, and have to be obeyed.
     
  6. donnA

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    Charlesga, no one said you weren't desciple. But we as SB's do beleive in the bible and beleive that those teaching it should also. And yes submission is very importnat, it is God's orer of things, anything else is outside of His given order. Any christian/ saved person is a disciple, but it depends on what kind of disciple they want to be.
     
  7. Bible-boy

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    Hello Charles,

    Your statement that I quoted in the opening post of this thread does not address “differences in interpretation.” I fully agree with your explanation of sharing the Gospel—the good news of Jesus Christ. However, the statement that you made appears to indicate that you believe that sharing the Gospel and making converts to Christianity is the extent of the responsibility of our SBC Missionaries. Your statement says that Missionaries should share the Gospel and not worry about teaching the new converts the rest of the Word of God. The Bible tells us that all Scripture is profitable and good for us (2 Timothy 16-17). That means that every word of the Bible is important and useful in the Christian’s life. My point is that if we were to do as you suggest we would not be making disciples as the Lord commanded in the Great Commission. All we would be doing is making converts. We have a responsibility to share the Gospel and then to continue to teach the new believers sound doctrine based upon the entire Word of God.

    I am not questioning whether or not you are a disciple of Christ based upon your interpretation of the rapture etc. I am saying that mature Christians have a responsibility to disciple, teach, new believers into Christian maturity. The questions that you have raised in your reply quoted above have nothing to do with your statement that I quoted in the original post on this thread. Let’s stick to one issue at a time. Therefore, I must ask you whether or not you agree with me that our Missionaries must teach all of the Word of God as they make disciples out on the mission field? Once we get that issue settled we can move on to discuss methods of biblical interpretation, qualifications for pastors, submission, and/or the rapture--one at time mind you :D .

    [ May 22, 2003, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]
     
  8. Hardsheller

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    It's really all very simple.

    "If you work for Coke you don't drink Pepsi on the Job."

    The very idea that an SBC Missionary would not have to agree to teach within the theological parameters set by the convention is absolutely absurd.
     
  9. USN2Pulpit

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    There it is...straight-forward reasoning.
     
  10. Charlesga

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    Hi BibleBoy,

    Sure, I agree with this statement. I do believe missionaries need to disciple. My point is only that disciples can have different interpretations on some issues and still be disciples.

    Katie stated:
    I am also SB, but believe in soul competency and the freedom for believers to interpret as they are led. Who am I to tell them they are wrong?

    Hardsheller said:
    I don't know that I would equate sharing the Gospel of Christ with working for a soft drink company, but I understand your point and respectfully disagree.


    I realize that some would like to judge people that disagree with them and refuse to have fellowship with them. Folks, we are on the same team, we (the SBC, not anyone here) need to behave like it.

    BibleBoy...sorry for getting off topic. I've said what I need to say. I'm out of the conversation. God bless you! [​IMG]
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    Soul Liberty is a catchword now used by liberals to mean "believe anything you want and no one can say you are wrong."

    That, my friends, is post-modernism, not soul liberty. There are parameters that safeguard our liberty.

    These same people have always said we don't need a doctrinal statement or BFM. We can use the Bible only. Sounds good, but without guidelines on interpreting the Bible you have people like</font>
    • Dr. Bob who is very conservative and would uphold the Bible very literally and fundamentally</font>
    • Dr. Joshua who is, ah, er, very not</font>
    And we BOTH claim to be Baptist! (right, Joshua?)
     
  12. donnA

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    Charlesga,

    Would your church hire a pastor without questioniing his beliefs? What if his beliefs are different from what your church beleives? Do you hire him anyway, let him teach whatever he wants?
    What about your Sunday school treacher? is he accountable to teach scripture? Or is he allowed to teach whatever he wants? No need to show it is biblical?
     
  13. Thankful

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    I have already stated that I believe the missionaries should sign the BF&M if they are going to work for the IMB/SBC.

    Today, I received a letter from a church that I used to belong to asking for support for missionaries to Brazil who have been fired for not signing. Actually, this husband and wife have taken early retirement from the IMB rather than be fired but they refused to sign. Now, they want funding to stay in Brazil for another year or two. They say that it will take approximately $120,000 to complete their work.

    The wife gave the following statement for not signing the BF&M:

    "We are opposed to a demand that exchanges the authority of the Bible for that of a man-made document and replace Christ as the criterion for interpreting the Bible with a creedal criterion. We are not willing to sign off on someboy else's statement of belief. I will not sign as a statement of my faith something I did not write. Neither will I promise to conduct my ministry according to a statement of belief which was prepared for a situation foreign to the culture in which I live and work."

    My thoughts: What about the earlier versions of the BF&M. They must have been hired under the BF&M 1963.

    I personally cannot under her reasoning for not signing. And I wonder why the husband is not quoted????
     
  14. donnA

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    Maybe they don't like the submission thing.

    They want ot be paid $120,000. for a year or twos work? Thats more then they got from IMB.
     
  15. Bible-boy

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    HELLO! [​IMG]
     
  16. Bible-boy

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    The first question to ask this missionary couple is why they suddenly need more financial support per year than they received during all their years of service with the IMB. :confused: :confused: :confused:

    Then we need to address the wife's statement quoted above. First, let's clear something up. No one is being or has been asked to "sign" the BF&M 2000. However, all IMB missionaries were asked to sign a statement saying that they agree that they will teach in accordance with and not contrary to the current BF&M. You see no one is telling them that they can not hold their personal beliefs or interpretation of Scripture.

    Second, at no point are they being asked to "exchange the authority of the Bible for that of a man-made document." The BF&M affirms the Bible as our highest and sole source of authority.

    Third, no one has asked them to "replace Christ as the criterion for interpreting the Bible with a creedal criterion." I would like for this missionary couple (or someone) to give a cogent explanation of how they know the Christ that they wish to use as the criterion for interpreting the Bible?

    Fourth, the missionary states: "We are not willing to sign off on somebody else's statement of belief. I will not sign as a statement of my faith something I did not write." It is interesting how the context quickly went from "we" to "I" in the portion of her statement. Clearly, this is where we come to the rub. Point blank the missionaries state that they do not agree with the current BF&M. That is fine. However, because they disagree they should not expect to remain at their post at the IMB's expense. The majority of Southern Baptists, who agree with the current BF&M and provide for the missionary's salaries through their giving to the Cooperative Program, have the right to expect their representatives on the mission field to teach in accordance with their expressed biblical views (meaning the current BF&M). As a missionary if you are unable to agree to conduct yourself in that manner then you are free to seek your support from another source that happens to agree with you.

    Finally, the missionary states: "Neither will I promise to conduct my ministry according to a statement of belief which was prepared for a situation foreign to the culture in which I live and work." I would ask her to please provide a cogent explanation of how a Scriptural statement of faith (that is based upon the Bible, which transcends nationalities, cultures, and time) can possibly be "foreign" to the culture in which she lives and works?

    Well that's my two-cents worth. I say let the CBF and Mainstream Baptists provide them with their requested $120,000.
     
  17. Bible-boy

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    Hi BibleBoy,

    Sure, I agree with this statement. I do believe missionaries need to disciple. My point is only that disciples can have different interpretations on some issues and still be disciples.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Charles,

    I agree with your statement about people holding to different interpretations of the Bible. However, I would point out that those who teach false doctrine are in error. Then as a result of their teaching false doctrine, heresy, they raise up a generation of believers that have been fed false doctrine, who in turn continue to propagate and purvey the original heresy. This is the problem with the school of thought whereby Christians sit in their Sunday School classes and discuss "What this passage means to me is..." Solid biblical exegesis and interpretation is not about what the passage says to me. There is only one proper interpretation of Scripture and that is the interpretation that the Holy Spirit intended when He breathed the Word and inspired the human author to write it down. That is the meaning we must strive to reach. We can not place ourselves, our feelings, or our experience in authority above the Scripture. We must pass our culture, thoughts, feelings, experiences, etc. through the sieve of the Word and never attempt to pass the Word through the sieve of our culture, thoughts, feelings, and experience.

    Charles,

    I appreciate your response and participation in this discussion. [​IMG] However, we can not have a meaningful and intelligent discussion if you withdraw after making only a couple of remarks. :( I pray God's blessings upon you as well. [​IMG]
     
  18. Hardsheller

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    Dr. Bob,

    There's a new phrase that we've been hearing here in Missouri from the more liberal Baptists.

    Are you ready for this?

    "Autonomy of the Individual"

    Translated that means "Nobody is going to tell me what I have to believe and what I have to do in order for me to be a Baptist."
     
  19. Bible-boy

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    "Autonomy of the Individual" Definitely a Post-Modern Phylosophy! It seems that it would also translate to "I am God and I don't have to accept anything from anybody." ;)
     
  20. Thankful

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    BibleBoyII,

    In response to my post about the missionaries who would not sign, I totally agree.

    You said exactly what I would have said (and did say privately), but you expressed it a lot better.

    Thank you.
     

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