Imminency - Not Found in the Bible

Repent_and_Believe · Aug 7, 2004

Imminency defined by Stanton:
1. Christ may come at any moment.
2. The uncertainty of the time of His Coming.
3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.

Each can be shown to be false by scripture. No, I am not going to call anyone names here. This is a Biblical discussion. Not a name calling event.

First, lets deal with the idea that Christ could come at any moment.

1. Did Peter believe this? No, the Lord in John 21 foretold his death. Later in II Peter 1:14 he said that he would have to put off this tabernacle AS THE LORD FORETOLD! Therefore, to say that Peter believed in Imminency is false. He never taught that the Lord could come at any moment. He did teach in II Peter 3:10 that the day of the Lord would catch the lost unawares, coming AS a thief in the night. That is the manner in which the Lord would come. Later in II Peter 3:12 we are told to look for the Day of the Lord. That it wouldnt take us unawares.
2. Paul didnt believe in an "anytime" appearing. His epistles were all finished BEFORE Peter died. Therefore, the Spirit of God didnt give Paul words to record (via scribes in many cases) that taught Imminency because Peter's death was foretold. As a matter of fact Paul exhorted us to not be surprised by the coming of the Lord. In I Thes 5:1-11 he said:
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The key verse is: 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

So to summarize so far:
1. Peter's death was foretold.
2. Christ would NOT come during Peter's lifetime.
3. Paul wrote all of his books during Peter's lifetime. Since Peter wouldnt die before Paul had delivered the epistles then these books do not teach Imminency. The Spirit made sure that the testimony and prophesy given by Jesus of Peter's death would not be turned into a lie.

3. John didnt believe in the theory of Imminency. His death was foretold as well. He would die in captivity. Thus none of John's epistles teach Imminency as John knew he would die and NOT see the Lord's return during his lifetime.

And the rest of the epistles follow suit. None of them teach Imminency as they were all written before John died. Since the Holy Spirit is not a liar and knew that John would not see the Lord's return during that Apostle's lifetime then the Spirit never gave any verse in the Bible that taught Imminency.

Now to disucss each of the points of Imminency:
1. Christ could come at any moment.

Not true. At least TWO things much come first. The falling away of the saints (apostasy) and the revealing of the Antichrist - II Thes 2:1-3.

Thus Christ cannot come at any moment because HIS word says He wont come until these two things occur. The great apostasy has not happened. The Antichrist has not yet come - when he does you will know it because it will be a truly WORLDWIDE (not as in Roman times - just the Med and some of the surrounding areas) event. Dan 11 will be fulfilled. And the Great Apostasy has not yet happened when "believers" will flock to the false religious banner.

2. The uncertainty of the time of His coming.

Not true. We know that:

1. Daniel by inspiration foretold of a seventy week period. That last week would start with the signing of a convenant with the prince of the people that should destroy the city (it was not Antioches as the coming of the Lord happens right after the Week is over). That covenant would be broken in the MIDST or middle of the week. Mt. 24:13-21 says that the Great Tribulation happens AFTER this the man of sin desecrates the temple.

2. The Day of the Lord begins IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. Joel 2:31, Mt. 24:29-31

3. No believer will be left behind that is alive. I Thes 4:15-17. The dead in Christ shall be raised at this instant or twinkling of an eye. The believers will be given new bodies and be fully sanctified.

Thus we are not uncertain of the time of His coming. We know that certain events must happen first and then at the end of the Great Tribulation of 3.5 years He will return.

Do we know the exact hour? No. However, we are not to exptect him until certain things must happen.

And finally,

3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.

This is not true. There are at least two events that must occur before Christ our Lord returns to Earth to rapture his people.

There must be an apostasy.

The man of sin must be revealed, the Son of perdition.

The latter takes place in the midst of the week.

A week of years is seven years. Thus the revealing will take place at the mid point or approximately 3.5 years into the Seventieth Week. This period is known as the Great Tribulation. No other tribulation (for believers) has happened in the past like this one nor will any other that happens after this writer is done typing this text happen before this terrible time occurs.

Thus you have:

1. The beginning of the Seventieth Week foretold by Daniel with a pact between the Antichrist and "many".

2. A great apostasy will occur. Folks will flock to the Antichrist's banner.

3. In the midst of the week the Antichrist will break the pact and desecrate the temple in Jerusalem. All will know about it. World wide persecution will ensue. Folks will be made to receive the mark or perish (there is an option - its not a forced activity).

4. During this latter 3.5 year period the days will be shortened for our sake.

5. Christ will come to rapture the church. The blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Lord.

The blessed hope AND glorious appearing are the same thing. The word AND ties them together not only in the Greek but also in the English. Its like saying "The catch by the tight end, Dwight Clark, was a great AND thrilling event in playoff history."

The Lord is our blessed hope.

We are not to fear death. We need to fear God!

God says he will give us strength to resist the Devil. No power of the Devil can compare to God's power.

Answering no to the mark of the beast will not seem easy now but the Spirit will guide us at THAT time to do so. And die a martyr's death..

Some may say that there were those martyrs that recanted, left the stake and returned to their homes rather than be burned. Yes, that is true. But the Lord Himself said to not rehearse what we would say in that moment. That the Spirit Himself would give us utterance.

And this is not to belittle anyone's position. As a matter of fact I belittle noone's position on this. You are free to believe what you want. This was given that those that are wondering about a Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath rapture would hear it from one that used to be a Pre-Trib believer like many.

We all have one thing in common - we dont believe that God's people will suffer His divine wrath.

Praise God to that and lets get out and win more folks for Christ. Let's not be decieved into thinking that the Day of the Lord has come already. Or that it will take us unawares.

The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord/Christ are not in the same time period. Search the scriptures and prayerfully post here your questions or comments.

No personal attacks please. Keep this board and thread free of caustic comments. I will not answer anyone that makes personal or sarcastic remarks. I dont doubt the intention of any of the authors that teach any other position. Lets keep to the Bible and not get hung up in name calling.

GODzThunder · Aug 7, 2004

what special events must take place before the dead in christ arise and those alive meet him in the air? and what exact time will those events occour?

Daniel David · Aug 7, 2004

I thought this was going to be a serious thread. Good one R & P.

Ed Edwards · Aug 7, 2004

Originally posted by GODzThunder:
what special events must take place before the dead in christ arise and those alive meet him in the air? and what exact time will those events occour?
Click to expand...

There are exactly none in proper eschatology to wit:
pretrbulation rapture/resurrection
premillinnial Second Coming of Jesus
Futuristic (most of the N.T. prophecies are yet to be fulfilled.

Repent_and_Believe: "2. The Day of the Lord begins
IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. Joel 2:31, Mt. 24:29-31"

Neither of your scriptures show a
Day of the Lord beginning after
a Tribulation.
Actually Joel 2:31 speaks of two each "Day of the Lord".
One already happened in Acts 2. Joel 2:31 does NOT
say that the second Day of the Lord will begin
immediately after a Tribulation.
(though this might be shown elsewhere in the
scriptures.

Matthew 24:29-31 does not day a Day of the Lord
begins after a Tribualtion.

Here is my take on Matthew 24:
-----------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

In the order to occur:
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?
2. What is the sign of His coming?

Jesus answers these questions in
the order asked in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
-----------------
Here are some different "day of the Lord"s:

1. The 7-year Tribualtion period
2. The coming of the Lord in power and awe
to destroy the antichrist and his works
3. The literal/physical reign of Christ on the
literal/physical throne of David in a literal/physical
Jerusalvem over a literal/physical world.

This list is not necessarily complete.

Trotter · Aug 8, 2004

R&B,

You post something like all of that, and then say "Let's keep it on the up and up"?

You are entitled to your own beliefs, no matter how wrong they are.

Without the imminency of the return of the Lord, why bother with any of it? Just live like the devil, and repent when you see the signs. Sound familiar?

In Christ,
Trotter

Craigbythesea · Aug 8, 2004

Repent and Believe,

Welcome to the Baptist Board. Now go home!

Just kidding about the second part . Thank you for sharing with us your particular eschatological points of view .

amixedupmom · Aug 8, 2004

Humm, Yes the Bible foretells things that will happen in the last days, but we have no idea what the concept of time is.

We all know that time dosen't exist for us like it exists for God. And, we are on God's time. Personally I hope that the Lord dosen't come for a few centuries. There are so many people out there that are lost that have no good reason to be. I would love to see everyone become saved and go home with me. It would be my honor if they would. And a GREAT testament to the Lord. Satan has too much of a hold on this world. We need to end that and bring as many as we can into the fold.

We could debated when the Lord's coming till he comes, but no one but HE knows when.

natters · Aug 8, 2004

Interesting post, Repent_and_believe. I would like to see a response, especially to the first point about Peter.

amixedupmom · Aug 8, 2004

He's right. The day of the Lord isn't going to take anyone of us by surprise because we are looking toward it. We might not know what day it is, but we will know when we see it. I think this is the point he's making and it's a good one as well

Ed Edwards · Aug 8, 2004

Argument: //3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.//

Repent_and_Believe counter argument: //This is not true. There are at least two events that must occur before Christ our Lord returns to Earth to rapture his people.

There must be an apostasy.
The man of sin must be revealed, the Son of perdition.
The latter takes place in the midst of the week.//

This counter argument is not correct, thus the arugment is
correct. This argument is based on an immature understanding
of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

I wrote the following argument about five years ago.
It argues to a "t" against Repent_and_Believe's lead-in.

--------------------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Zion north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

Ed Edwards · Aug 8, 2004

Lea: "Humm, Yes the Bible foretells things that will happen in the last days, but we have no idea what the concept of time is."

We have little concept of God's time.
However, you use a strange phrase: "in the last days".

Acts 2:14-21 (KJV1769):
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call
on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Since this sermon of Peter was given on the Day of
Pentacost, 33AD, we have been in THE LAST DAYS.
I.E. all mentions of "last days" in the Bible is
either a prophecy of 33AD-2004+ or the fulfillment of
those prophecies. We live in the last days.

In the last days this is true:
"whosoever shall call
on the name of the Lord shall be saved"
Apparently, after the "last days"
that will no longer be true. People
will call upon the name of the Lord and
NOT be saved.

Please, my beloved brothers and sisters and fellow
human beans, do NOT be lured into the "Imminency
-- Not Found the Bible" trap. Imminency is taught
in the Bible. And as the time of these last
days increase, the chance of the "no signs ahead of time
taking of the saved to heaven", the rapture, is all
the much more likely than before. The coming of the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection has always
(well, since Peter died in 48AD) been imminent.
Since the New Testament was compiled (about 300AD)
the pretribulation signless rapture/resurrection has
been imminent. When it comes, the time for
we gentiles to live by "whosoever shall call
on the name of the Lord shall be saved" -- this time
shall end. The world will go into a time of tribulation
unparalleled in world History, even the 70AD destruction
of one million Jews in Israel and the selling of another
one million Jews into slavery, worse than the Holocost
in Germany when 6 million Jews were burned in the ovens
of hell, worse than the 25 million (1/4 of the population
of Europe dying of the Black Plague in the early
14th (1301-1400AD) century.

Imminency is not just a correct eschatology,
imminency is Bible Eschatology.

BTW, at least the lead-in post correctly defines
Imminency:

Imminency defined by Stanton:
1. Christ may come at any moment.
2. The uncertainty of the time of His Coming.
3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.

As time increases and Jesus tarries (so that, like Sister
Lea said, more may be saved) uncertainty of the time of His
Coming decreases (certainty increases) for we know He did
not come Earlier so the odds of Jesus coming later increase.

Grasshopper · Aug 8, 2004

Humm, Yes the Bible foretells things that will happen in the last days, but we have no idea what the concept of time is.
Click to expand...

Heb 1:1-2 tell us the last days were in the 1st century.

We all know that time dosen't exist for us like it exists for God. And, we are on God's time.
Click to expand...

Time is different for God than us(Ps 90:1-4). However He gave us time( sun, moon) and communicates to us in a way we can understand. If not than we can ignore all references to time in the bible for it would be meaningless to us.

As time increases and Jesus tarries
Click to expand...

Heb 10:37For in just a very little while,
"He who is coming will come and will not tarry .

Ed Edwards · Aug 8, 2004

Grasshopper: "Heb 1:1-2 tell us the last days were in the 1st century."

I respectfully disagree.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (HCSB):
1 Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets
at different times and in different ways.
2 In these last days,
He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He
has appointed heir of all things and through
whom He made the universe.

Heb 1:1-2 tell us the last days started in the 1st century.
Heb 1:1-2 tell us the last days were when God's Son
spake on earth to us, in the 1st century.

GODzThunder · Aug 8, 2004

the last days refers to the fact that the Church age is the next to last age (the last being the tribulation) before the millenium.

natters · Aug 8, 2004

Last = next to last?

I'd like to see some comments about the first point in the original post, the stuff about Peter.

Charles Meadows · Aug 8, 2004

That's a nice explanation but I think you're looking for certainty when there is none. I don't see anything about the day of the Lord being like a "thief in the night" only for lost people. I admit however that I'm not a dispensationalist so I don't much buy into the whole rapture and literal 7 year tribulation thing.

Ed Edwards · Aug 8, 2004

Originally posted by natters:
I'd like to see some comments about the first point in the original post, the stuff about Peter.
Click to expand...

The original post
is not worth commenting about.
Peter died before the New Testament was
collected. We get our concept of the
Imminency of the beginning of the Second
Coming (the rapture event) from the New
Testament. The "wait" for the event
of Peter dying is moot. Jesus can
come get us in the rapture/resurrection
at any time without any preconditions.
This has been true as long as there has
been a written New Testament.

natters · Aug 8, 2004

Ed Edwards said "The original post is not worth commenting about. Peter died before the New Testament was collected."

But not before it was written. I don't think the writings in the New Testament meant something different after they were collected, as to compared to before they were collected. After the New Testament was written (but before it was collected), and before Peter died, could Peter have believed that Jesus could rapture him at any moment, knowing that Jesus predicted he would grow old and die? Could the "imminency" scriptures have meant rapture could happen at any time, for Peter? I don't think so.

Ed Edwards · Aug 8, 2004

Frankly I don't care if your elephant
has one flea or a dozen. The Elephant
is important, not it's fleas.

I believe the Day of the Lord is
one each 7-year-long "day". The start of
the day is NOT predictable (the rapture);
the end of the day is quite according
to predictable schedule.

natters · Aug 9, 2004

Ed Edwards said "Frankly I don't care if your elephant has one flea or a dozen. The Elephant is important, not it's fleas."

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