Imminency - Not Found in the Bible

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Repent_and_Believe, Aug 7, 2004.

  1. Repent_and_Believe

    Repent_and_Believe
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2004
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    Imminency defined by Stanton:
    1. Christ may come at any moment.
    2. The uncertainty of the time of His Coming.
    3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.

    Each can be shown to be false by scripture. No, I am not going to call anyone names here. This is a Biblical discussion. Not a name calling event.

    First, lets deal with the idea that Christ could come at any moment.

    1. Did Peter believe this? No, the Lord in John 21 foretold his death. Later in II Peter 1:14 he said that he would have to put off this tabernacle AS THE LORD FORETOLD! Therefore, to say that Peter believed in Imminency is false. He never taught that the Lord could come at any moment. He did teach in II Peter 3:10 that the day of the Lord would catch the lost unawares, coming AS a thief in the night. That is the manner in which the Lord would come. Later in II Peter 3:12 we are told to look for the Day of the Lord. That it wouldnt take us unawares.
    2. Paul didnt believe in an "anytime" appearing. His epistles were all finished BEFORE Peter died. Therefore, the Spirit of God didnt give Paul words to record (via scribes in many cases) that taught Imminency because Peter's death was foretold. As a matter of fact Paul exhorted us to not be surprised by the coming of the Lord. In I Thes 5:1-11 he said:
    1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    The key verse is: 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    So to summarize so far:
    1. Peter's death was foretold.
    2. Christ would NOT come during Peter's lifetime.
    3. Paul wrote all of his books during Peter's lifetime. Since Peter wouldnt die before Paul had delivered the epistles then these books do not teach Imminency. The Spirit made sure that the testimony and prophesy given by Jesus of Peter's death would not be turned into a lie.

    3. John didnt believe in the theory of Imminency. His death was foretold as well. He would die in captivity. Thus none of John's epistles teach Imminency as John knew he would die and NOT see the Lord's return during his lifetime.

    And the rest of the epistles follow suit. None of them teach Imminency as they were all written before John died. Since the Holy Spirit is not a liar and knew that John would not see the Lord's return during that Apostle's lifetime then the Spirit never gave any verse in the Bible that taught Imminency.

    Now to disucss each of the points of Imminency:
    1. Christ could come at any moment.

    Not true. At least TWO things much come first. The falling away of the saints (apostasy) and the revealing of the Antichrist - II Thes 2:1-3.

    Thus Christ cannot come at any moment because HIS word says He wont come until these two things occur. The great apostasy has not happened. The Antichrist has not yet come - when he does you will know it because it will be a truly WORLDWIDE (not as in Roman times - just the Med and some of the surrounding areas) event. Dan 11 will be fulfilled. And the Great Apostasy has not yet happened when "believers" will flock to the false religious banner.

    2. The uncertainty of the time of His coming.

    Not true. We know that:

    1. Daniel by inspiration foretold of a seventy week period. That last week would start with the signing of a convenant with the prince of the people that should destroy the city (it was not Antioches as the coming of the Lord happens right after the Week is over). That covenant would be broken in the MIDST or middle of the week. Mt. 24:13-21 says that the Great Tribulation happens AFTER this the man of sin desecrates the temple.

    2. The Day of the Lord begins IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. Joel 2:31, Mt. 24:29-31

    3. No believer will be left behind that is alive. I Thes 4:15-17. The dead in Christ shall be raised at this instant or twinkling of an eye. The believers will be given new bodies and be fully sanctified.

    Thus we are not uncertain of the time of His coming. We know that certain events must happen first and then at the end of the Great Tribulation of 3.5 years He will return.

    Do we know the exact hour? No. However, we are not to exptect him until certain things must happen.

    And finally,

    3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.

    This is not true. There are at least two events that must occur before Christ our Lord returns to Earth to rapture his people.

    There must be an apostasy.

    The man of sin must be revealed, the Son of perdition.

    The latter takes place in the midst of the week.

    A week of years is seven years. Thus the revealing will take place at the mid point or approximately 3.5 years into the Seventieth Week. This period is known as the Great Tribulation. No other tribulation (for believers) has happened in the past like this one nor will any other that happens after this writer is done typing this text happen before this terrible time occurs.

    Thus you have:

    1. The beginning of the Seventieth Week foretold by Daniel with a pact between the Antichrist and "many".

    2. A great apostasy will occur. Folks will flock to the Antichrist's banner.

    3. In the midst of the week the Antichrist will break the pact and desecrate the temple in Jerusalem. All will know about it. World wide persecution will ensue. Folks will be made to receive the mark or perish (there is an option - its not a forced activity).

    4. During this latter 3.5 year period the days will be shortened for our sake.

    5. Christ will come to rapture the church. The blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Lord.

    The blessed hope AND glorious appearing are the same thing. The word AND ties them together not only in the Greek but also in the English. Its like saying "The catch by the tight end, Dwight Clark, was a great AND thrilling event in playoff history."

    The Lord is our blessed hope.

    We are not to fear death. We need to fear God!

    God says he will give us strength to resist the Devil. No power of the Devil can compare to God's power.

    Answering no to the mark of the beast will not seem easy now but the Spirit will guide us at THAT time to do so. And die a martyr's death..

    Some may say that there were those martyrs that recanted, left the stake and returned to their homes rather than be burned. Yes, that is true. But the Lord Himself said to not rehearse what we would say in that moment. That the Spirit Himself would give us utterance.

    And this is not to belittle anyone's position. As a matter of fact I belittle noone's position on this. You are free to believe what you want. This was given that those that are wondering about a Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath rapture would hear it from one that used to be a Pre-Trib believer like many.

    We all have one thing in common - we dont believe that God's people will suffer His divine wrath.

    Praise God to that and lets get out and win more folks for Christ. Let's not be decieved into thinking that the Day of the Lord has come already. Or that it will take us unawares.

    The Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord/Christ are not in the same time period. Search the scriptures and prayerfully post here your questions or comments.

    No personal attacks please. Keep this board and thread free of caustic comments. I will not answer anyone that makes personal or sarcastic remarks. I dont doubt the intention of any of the authors that teach any other position. Lets keep to the Bible and not get hung up in name calling.
     
  2. GODzThunder

    GODzThunder
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2003
    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    0
    what special events must take place before the dead in christ arise and those alive meet him in the air? and what exact time will those events occour?
     
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    I thought this was going to be a serious thread. Good one R & P.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are exactly none in proper eschatology to wit:
    pretrbulation rapture/resurrection
    premillinnial Second Coming of Jesus
    Futuristic (most of the N.T. prophecies are yet to be fulfilled.

    Repent_and_Believe: "2. The Day of the Lord begins
    IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation. Joel 2:31, Mt. 24:29-31"

    Neither of your scriptures show a
    Day of the Lord beginning after
    a Tribulation.
    Actually Joel 2:31 speaks of two each "Day of the Lord".
    One already happened in Acts 2. Joel 2:31 does NOT
    say that the second Day of the Lord will begin
    immediately after a Tribulation.
    (though this might be shown elsewhere in the
    scriptures.

    Matthew 24:29-31 does not day a Day of the Lord
    begins after a Tribualtion.

    Here is my take on Matthew 24:
    -----------------
    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    In the order to occur:
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    the order asked in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc&gt;)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
    -----------------
    Here are some different "day of the Lord"s:

    1. The 7-year Tribualtion period
    2. The coming of the Lord in power and awe
    to destroy the antichrist and his works
    3. The literal/physical reign of Christ on the
    literal/physical throne of David in a literal/physical
    Jerusalvem over a literal/physical world.

    This list is not necessarily complete.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Trotter

    Trotter
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/6412.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2003
    Messages:
    4,815
    Likes Received:
    0
    R&B,

    You post something like all of that, and then say "Let's keep it on the up and up"?

    You are entitled to your own beliefs, no matter how wrong they are.

    Without the imminency of the return of the Lord, why bother with any of it? Just live like the devil, and repent when you see the signs. Sound familiar?

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  6. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    Repent and Believe,

    Welcome to the Baptist Board. Now go home!

    Just kidding about the second part :D . Thank you for sharing with us your particular eschatological points of view [​IMG] .
     
  7. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Humm, Yes the Bible foretells things that will happen in the last days, but we have no idea what the concept of time is.


    We all know that time dosen't exist for us like it exists for God. And, we are on God's time. Personally I hope that the Lord dosen't come for a few centuries. There are so many people out there that are lost that have no good reason to be. I would love to see everyone become saved and go home with me. It would be my honor if they would. And a GREAT testament to the Lord. Satan has too much of a hold on this world. We need to end that and bring as many as we can into the fold.

    We could debated when the Lord's coming till he comes, but no one but HE knows when.
     
  8. natters

    natters
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting post, Repent_and_believe. I would like to see a response, especially to the first point about Peter.
     
  9. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    He's right. The day of the Lord isn't going to take anyone of us by surprise because we are looking toward it. We might not know what day it is, but we will know when we see it. I think this is the point he's making and it's a good one as well
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Argument: //3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.//

    Repent_and_Believe counter argument: //This is not true. There are at least two events that must occur before Christ our Lord returns to Earth to rapture his people.

    There must be an apostasy.
    The man of sin must be revealed, the Son of perdition.
    The latter takes place in the midst of the week.//

    This counter argument is not correct, thus the arugment is
    correct. This argument is based on an immature understanding
    of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

    I wrote the following argument about five years ago.
    It argues to a "t" against Repent_and_Believe's lead-in.

    --------------------------
    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.


    [​IMG]
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lea: "Humm, Yes the Bible foretells things that will happen in the last days, but we have no idea what the concept of time is."

    We have little concept of God's time.
    However, you use a strange phrase: "in the last days".

    Acts 2:14-21 (KJV1769):
    But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,
    I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
    21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call
    on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Since this sermon of Peter was given on the Day of
    Pentacost, 33AD, we have been in THE LAST DAYS.
    I.E. all mentions of "last days" in the Bible is
    either a prophecy of 33AD-2004+ or the fulfillment of
    those prophecies. We live in the last days.

    In the last days this is true:
    "whosoever shall call
    on the name of the Lord shall be saved"
    Apparently, after the "last days"
    that will no longer be true. People
    will call upon the name of the Lord and
    NOT be saved.

    Please, my beloved brothers and sisters and fellow
    human beans, do NOT be lured into the "Imminency
    -- Not Found the Bible" trap. Imminency is taught
    in the Bible. And as the time of these last
    days increase, the chance of the "no signs ahead of time
    taking of the saved to heaven", the rapture, is all
    the much more likely than before. The coming of the
    pretribulation rapture/resurrection has always
    (well, since Peter died in 48AD) been imminent.
    Since the New Testament was compiled (about 300AD)
    the pretribulation signless rapture/resurrection has
    been imminent. When it comes, the time for
    we gentiles to live by "whosoever shall call
    on the name of the Lord shall be saved" -- this time
    shall end. The world will go into a time of tribulation
    unparalleled in world History, even the 70AD destruction
    of one million Jews in Israel and the selling of another
    one million Jews into slavery, worse than the Holocost
    in Germany when 6 million Jews were burned in the ovens
    of hell, worse than the 25 million (1/4 of the population
    of Europe dying of the Black Plague in the early
    14th (1301-1400AD) century.

    Imminency is not just a correct eschatology,
    imminency is Bible Eschatology.

    BTW, at least the lead-in post correctly defines
    Imminency:

    Imminency defined by Stanton:
    1. Christ may come at any moment.
    2. The uncertainty of the time of His Coming.
    3. No prophesied event stands between the believer and that hour.

    As time increases and Jesus tarries (so that, like Sister
    Lea said, more may be saved) uncertainty of the time of His
    Coming decreases (certainty increases) for we know He did
    not come Earlier so the odds of Jesus coming later increase.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Heb 1:1-2 tell us the last days were in the 1st century.

    Time is different for God than us(Ps 90:1-4). However He gave us time( sun, moon) and communicates to us in a way we can understand. If not than we can ignore all references to time in the bible for it would be meaningless to us.

    Heb 10:37For in just a very little while,
    "He who is coming will come and will not tarry .
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Grasshopper: "Heb 1:1-2 tell us the last days were in the 1st century."

    I respectfully disagree.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 (HCSB):
    1 Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets
    at different times and in different ways.
    2 In these last days,
    He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He
    has appointed heir of all things and through
    whom He made the universe.


    Heb 1:1-2 tell us the last days started in the 1st century.
    Heb 1:1-2 tell us the last days were when God's Son
    spake on earth to us, in the 1st century.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. GODzThunder

    GODzThunder
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2003
    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    0
    the last days refers to the fact that the Church age is the next to last age (the last being the tribulation) before the millenium.
     
  15. natters

    natters
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Last = next to last?

    I'd like to see some comments about the first point in the original post, the stuff about Peter. [​IMG]
     
  16. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's a nice explanation but I think you're looking for certainty when there is none. I don't see anything about the day of the Lord being like a "thief in the night" only for lost people. I admit however that I'm not a dispensationalist so I don't much buy into the whole rapture and literal 7 year tribulation thing.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    The original post
    is not worth commenting about.
    Peter died before the New Testament was
    collected. We get our concept of the
    Imminency of the beginning of the Second
    Coming (the rapture event) from the New
    Testament. The "wait" for the event
    of Peter dying is moot. Jesus can
    come get us in the rapture/resurrection
    at any time without any preconditions.
    This has been true as long as there has
    been a written New Testament.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. natters

    natters
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ed Edwards said "The original post is not worth commenting about. Peter died before the New Testament was collected."

    But not before it was written. I don't think the writings in the New Testament meant something different after they were collected, as to compared to before they were collected. After the New Testament was written (but before it was collected), and before Peter died, could Peter have believed that Jesus could rapture him at any moment, knowing that Jesus predicted he would grow old and die? Could the "imminency" scriptures have meant rapture could happen at any time, for Peter? I don't think so.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Frankly I don't care if your elephant
    has one flea or a dozen. The Elephant
    is important, not it's fleas.

    I believe the Day of the Lord is
    one each 7-year-long "day". The start of
    the day is NOT predictable (the rapture);
    the end of the day is quite according
    to predictable schedule.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. natters

    natters
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ed Edwards said "Frankly I don't care if your elephant has one flea or a dozen. The Elephant is important, not it's fleas."

    :confused: :confused:
     

Share This Page

Loading...