Imperfections in the AV1611

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Apr 17, 2004.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Not talking KJV1769 (the one corrected and commonly employed by "onlies" today). Am talking about 1611.

    On another thread I wrote:
    I was told this was WRONG. There were NO IMPERFECTIONS in the AV1611.

    Lest the "onlies" try to weasel by redefining perfect, let's stick with Webster:

    Perfect:
    1. complete in all respects; without defect or omission; sound; flawless; hence
    2. faultless; most excellent
    3. completely correct or accurate; exact; precise
    4. without reserve; pure

    Does the AV1611 meet the dictionary definition of "perfect"?
     
  2. robycop3

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    Here's a starter, Dr. Bob:

    John. 15:20 (AV 1611) "The servant is not greater than the Lord."
    1769 KJV: "The servant is not greater than his Lord." From Strong's, I read it thusly: "A slave (dou'lo") is not greater than his master (kuvrio")." That kinda jumped out when I was comparing my replica AV 1611 w/the "modern" KJV.

    I know just about enuff Greek to order dinner in a Greek restaurant & be served a doorknob. If my "take" of the Greek here was wrong, please correct me, as what I wrote is from piecing the words together from the online Strong's.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    I checked it out and you are correct. Major change. Which one is perfect and which imperfect?
     
  4. Archangel7

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    I've posted this before, but it fits the topic, so I'll post it again.


    WHICH KJV IS CORRECT?


    Here are some selected examples of the differences between the 1611 KJV and today's KJV:


    "And she laid up his garment by her, until *her* lord came home." (Gen. 39:16, 1611 KJV)

    "And she laid up his garment by her, until *his* lord came home." (Gen. 39:16, today's KJV)

    Whose lord came home -- hers or his?


    "If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels, and the ox shall be stoned." (Ex. 21:32, 1611 KJV)

    "If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels *of silver*, and the ox shall be stoned." (Ex. 21:32, today's KJV)

    Just "shekels?" Or "shekels" of a specific type?


    "And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the *names* of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth." (Ex. 23:13, 1611 KJV)

    "And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the *name* of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth." (Ex. 23:13, today's KJV)

    One name or many names?


    "And if thou bring an oblation of a meat offering baken in the oven, it shall be *an unleavened cake* of fine flour mingled with oil, or unleavened wafers anointed with oil." (Lev. 2:4, 1611 KJV)

    "And if thou bring an oblation of a meat offering baken in the oven, it shall be *unleavened cakes* of fine flour mingled with oil, or unleavened wafers anointed with oil." (Lev. 2:4, today's KJV)

    How many unleavened cakes are required here? Just one? Or more than one?


    "Even those that were numbered of them, throughout their families, by the *houses* of their fathers, were two thousand and six hundred and thirty." (Num 4:40, 1611 KJV)

    "Even those that were numbered of them, throughout their families, by the *house* of their fathers, were two thousand and six hundred and thirty." (Num 4:40, today's KJV)

    One house or many houses?


    "O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!" (Deut. 5:29, 1611 KJV)

    "O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep *all* my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!" (Deut. 5:29, today's KJV)

    Will it be well with Israel if they keep just some of God's commandments, or must they keep all of them?


    "And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks *at* the time of harvest,)" (Josh. 3:15, 1611 KJV)

    "And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks *all* the time of harvest,) (Josh. 3:15, today's KJV)

    Does the water of the Jordan overflow at some point during harvest season, or does it overflow throughout the entire harvest season?


    "And to the captains over hundreds did the priest give king David's spears and shields, that were in the temple." (2 Kg. 11:10, 1611 KJV)

    "And to the captains over hundreds did the priest give king David's spears and shields, that were in the temple *of the LORD*." (2 Kg. 11:10, today's KJV)

    Is it just "temple," or is it "temple of the LORD?"


    "The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek *good.*" (Psa. 69:32, 1611 KJV)

    "The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek *God*." (Psa. 69:32, today's KJV)

    So do we seek good or God?


    "Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yea further though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it." (Eccl. 8:17, 1611 KJV)

    "Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, *yet he shall not find it*; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it." (Eccl. 8:17, today's KJV)

    Are the words "yet he shall not find it" the words of God or not?


    "Sing, O *heaven*; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for *God* hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted." (Isa. 49:13, 1611 KJV)

    "Sing, O *heavens*; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for *the LORD* hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted." (Isa. 49:13, today's KJV)

    Is it "heaven" or "heavens?" And is the Divine Name used here or not?


    "So the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life." (Jer 38:16, 1611 KJV)

    "So *Zedekiah* the king sware secretly unto Jeremiah, saying, As the LORD liveth, that made us this soul, I will not put thee to death, neither will I give thee into the hand of these men that seek thy life." (Jer 38:16, today's KJV)

    So is the king mentioned by name or not?


    "Concerning the Ammonites, thus saith the LORD; Hath Israel no sons? hath he no heir? why then doth their king inherit *God*, and his people dwell in his cities?" (Jer. 49:1, 1611 KJV)

    "Concerning the Ammonites, thus saith the LORD; Hath Israel no sons? hath he no heir? why then doth their king inherit *Gad,* and his people dwell in his cities?" (Jer. 49:1, today's KJV)

    Have the Ammonites inherited both God and God's cities? Or merely the territory and cities of Gad?


    "And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto *thy people*, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear." (Ezek. 3:11, 1611 KJV)

    "And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto *the children of thy people*, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear." (Ezek. 3:11, 1611 KJV)

    To whom is Ezekiel to go -- to his people, or to their children?


    "For her blood is in the midst of her; she set it upon the top of a rock; she poured it upon the ground, to cover it with dust" (Ezek. 24:7, 1611 KJV).

    "For her blood is in the midst of her; she set it upon the top of a rock; she poured it *not* upon the ground, to cover it with dust" (Ezek. 24:7, today's KJV).

    So did she pour it out or not?


    "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art *Christ*, the Son of the living God." (Mt. 16:16, 1611 KJV)

    "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art *the Christ*, the Son of the living God." (Mt. 16:16, today's KJV)

    Just Christ? Or THE Christ?


    "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he *came* and worshipped him" (Mk. 5:6, 1611 KJV)

    "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he *ran* and worshipped him" (Mk. 5:6, today's KJV)

    Did the man simply come to Jesus, perhaps walking? Or did he run to Jesus?


    "It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of *things* from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus" (Lk. 1:3, 1611 KJV)

    "It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of *all things* from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus" (Lk. 1:3, today's KJV)

    Did Luke have perfect understanding of only a few things, or of all things?


    "Therefore his *sister* sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick." (Jn. 11:3, 1611 KJV)

    "Therefore his *sisters* sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick." (Jn. 11:3, today's KJV)

    Did only one of the two sisters send word to Jesus about Lazarus, or did they both send word?


    "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, *helps in governments*, diversities of tongues." (1 Cor. 12:28, 1611 KJV)

    "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, *helps, governments*, diversities of tongues." (1 Cor. 12:28, today's KJV)

    Is Paul speaking of one administrative gift known as "helps in governments," or is he speaking of two different gifts, a gift of "helps" and a gift of "governments?"


    "In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:" (2 Cor 11:32, 1611 KJV)

    "In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city *of the Damascenes* with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:" (2 Cor 11:32, today's KJV)

    Just "the city?" Or "the city of the Damascenes?"


    "Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity." (Eph. 6:24, 1611 KJV)

    "Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. *Amen*. " (Eph. 6:24, today's KJV)

    Do I hear an "amen" or not? O:)


    "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than *edifying* which is in faith: so do." (1 Tim. 1:4, 1611 KJV)

    "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than *godly edifying* which is in faith: so do." (1 Tim. 1:4, today's KJV)

    So is it merely edifying, or is it a particluar kind of edifying, namely, godly edifying?


    "The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, but especially the parchments." (2 Tim. 4:13, 1611 KJV)

    "The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, *and the books*, but especially the parchments." (2 Tim. 4:13, today's KJV)

    Was Timothy to bring the books or not?


    "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual *sacrifice*, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5, 1611 KJV)

    "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual *sacrifices*, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 2:5, today's KJV)

    Is Peter telling us to offer one single spiritual sacrifice, or many different spiritual sacrifices?


    "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not *the Son* hath not life." (1 Jn. 5:12, 1611 KJV)

    "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not *the Son of God* hath not life." (1 Jn. 5:12, today's KJV)

    So is it "the Son" or "the Son of God?"


    These are but a few of the numerous examples of differences in wording and meaning between the 1611 KJV and today's KJV. Which version in each of these cases is correct? And since the "original" translators' copy no longer exists, how do you *know* which version is correct? Which version has God's "pure, preserved words?" How can you *know* this for certain?
     
  5. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Wow Archangel - hadn't seen the list compiled quite so clearly before. I am anxious to see the answer.
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Not holding my breath for an answer. But I had forgotten about that list. THANK YOU. It simply shows a reality that is glaring.

    Of course, the answer I've seen is 'TYPO'. Some poor typesetter in 1611 saw "his" but put "her" and the re-re-inspired 1769 bunch corrected it.
     
  7. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    So for 158 years God couldn't preserve His Word from "typos"?
     
  8. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    -bump-

    I don't want Archangel's intriguing question above to get lost.
     
  9. HankD

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    Hmm, here are a couple of alternatives for KJVO folks:

    (1) Things which are different can be the same.
    (2) Inspired typos!!!

    HankD
     
  10. skanwmatos

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    As nobody else seems willing to give it a try, I will.
    "His" is correct. "Her" was carried over from the Geneva bible.
    "Of Silver" is correct. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
    "Name" is correct. Superfluous "s" in the first edition reading.
    "Cakes" is correct. The singular "cake" is a carry over from the Geneva bible.
    Take your pick. One Hebrew text type reads singular and the other reads plural. The first edition of the KJV followed the lead of the Geneva bible, but changed it to singular in later editions. Interestingly the ASV of 1901 reverted to "houses" and the update of that worthy effort, the NASB reads "their father's households."
    "All" is correct. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
    "All" is correct.
    "Of the LORD" is correct. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
    "God" is correct.
    "Yet he shall not find it" is correct. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
    "Heavens" is correct. Dropping letters is a common printer's error.
    "Zedekiah" is correct. The edition of 1611 followed the reading of the Geneva bible.
    "Gad" is correct. The edition of 1611 carried over the error found in the Geneva bible.
    "The children of" is correct. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
    "Not" is correct. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
     
  11. skanwmatos

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    Part 2:
    "The" is correct. Jesus is the Messiah. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
    "Ran" is correct.
    "All" is correct. Dropping of words is a common printer's error.
    "Sisters" is correct. Dropping a letter or letters is a common printer's error.
    "Helps, governments" is correct. As there is no punctuation in most Greek manuscripts it is sometimes difficult to determine the exact meaning.
    "Of the Damascenes" is correct. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
    I am aware of only one Greek text which contains the "amen" (The Majority Text according to Hodges and Farstad). It seems to be a tradition started by Wycliff and carried through the Tyndale, Cranmer, Geneva, and even the Catholic Rheims. I have read that Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus contains the "amen" but have not been able to verify that reading.
    "Godly" is correct, or, perhaps "the nurture of God in faith." Dropping of words is a common printer's error.
    "And the books" is correct. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
    "Sacrifices" is correct. Dropping letters is a common printer's error.
    "Of God" is correct. Dropping words is a common printer's error.
    We look at the Greek manuscript evidence.

    I really don't see what the big mystery is. Every bible contains such printer's errors and every bible goes through several editions as a winnowing process to get everything right.
     
  12. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    My question remains - if the translation was perfect, could not a sovereign God have prevented printer's errors?

    If we know these errors exist, how can we trust the rest of the printing? Where was the perfect Bible from 1611-1769?

    Seriously, does God's preserving power only apply to the translators and not the printers?

    And, Skan, how do you KNOW which is correct?
     
  13. LarryN

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    An example of inconsistancy in KJVO argumentation:


    EXAMPLE # 1:

     
  14. robycop3

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    True about the double standard, LarryN. KJVOism is full of them.

    I don't care WHO else outside Christianity uses the phrase, "the Christ". Seeing as how there's only ONE Christ, "the Christ" is correct when referring to JESUS. " *A* Christ" would be incorrect.

    This is just another vain and poor attempt by an Onlyist to try to find something...ANYTHING...to lend a little credence to the myth.
     
  15. Phillip

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    Funny how when the kitchen gets hot the KJVo's leave. Too bad they won't stay around and take a beatin'. :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
  16. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Kudos to Skan for the courage to jump in!
     
  17. skanwmatos

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    That would depend on what you mean by "perfect." If you mean "complete" or "mature" or "nothing lacking necessary to the whole" then, yes, the 1611 was perfect as are all subsequent editions and revisions.

    If, however, by "perfect" you mean without any error on any kind including printer's errors, then I would have to say you set an unattainable standard. God inspires but man translates. As long as God is Holy the Bible is perfect, and as long as man is sinful the translations will be flawed. Some badly flawed, some hardly at all, but all flawed.
    To quote Ronald Reagan, "trust, but verify."
    Perfect meaning mature, in many places, most notably the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts and texts, as well as the early vernaculars and the English versions.
    I do not believe God's preservation applies to either.
    I look at the Hebrew and Greek manuscript evidence.
     
  18. skanwmatos

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    You should try to find one functioning brain cell. I am not now nor have I ever been KJVO.

    Another fine example of an inability to read with understanding or write two coherent sentences in a row.
     
  19. gb93433

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    Maybe they are starting to listen.
     
  20. LarryN

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    You should try to find one functioning brain cell. I am not now nor have I ever been KJVO.

    Another fine example of an inability to read with understanding or write two coherent sentences in a row.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Touchy, very touchy. If you are not, please accept my apologies.

    Your posts seem designed to leave others with the distinct impression that you are, in fact, KJVO.
     

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