Importance of a Pronoun

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Dec 7, 2003.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    A friend brought up John 15:1-6 and indicated the fate of those who LOSE their salvation or that were NEVER TRULY SAVED. They will burn!
    But notice the change in pronouns. Praise God!
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    Discussion anyone?

    Change from "him" to "them" (or "it" in the critical text) makes the verse crystal clear!
     
  3. BrianT

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    Does this have anything to do with him/them of Psa 12:5-7? ;) Seriously, I don't understand what point you trying to make. [​IMG]
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    Cute? Nothing to do with versions!!

    Just that people use John 15:6 to talk about losing salvation, cast into fire, etc.

    But the pronoun change shifts it all

    If a man abide not in me, HE (the man) is cast forth as a branch, and HE (the man) is withered; and men gather THEM (the works), and cast THEM (the works) into the fire, and THEY (the works) are burned.

    Most Greek text use IT (singular) instead of THEM/THEY, but it is the same - distinct from the individual.
     
  5. BrianT

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    That seems a bit strange to me.

    I don't see "works" mentioned, and the analogy of "branches" looses much. Men gather the works? That doesn't make much sense either. An analogy of men gathering withered branches for burning makes a lot more sense, and seems to me to be the most natural interpretation of the passage.
     
  6. Johnv

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    I'd be curious as to how it reads in the original Greek?
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Two forms in the Greek - Eastern Orthodox texts have "them" (auta) and Western Orthodox texts have "it" (auto). An alpha and an omicron are hard to differentiate in the BEST of times!

    I use "works" as a possible plural reference. "Fruit" would also fit this passage. "Branches" are fine.
     
  8. Frogman

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    Dr. Bob,
    I believe Vine's discusses this in the same way you are pointing out.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  9. BrianT

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    But a branch represents a man. I still don't see how this is a "works" burning passage. It seems to be saying that a man (branch) who stops abinding in Christ (the vine), is cast aside and withers (the branch dies) and is later gathered to be burned.
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    The Greek word for "takes away"in 15:2 is airo (eyero) and is normally translated lifted up. In 15:6 it is the passive of ballo which means to throw or cast. I don't see unbelievers in 15:6.

    The non abiding believer is cast out AS THE BRANCH (singular with definite article). The "they" (plural) are gathered cast into the fire and burned. Since a pronoun (them) must agree with its antecedent in gender and number -- normal grammar argues that what is cast into the fire is not the branches.

    However there is NO supplied antecedent in the context, so whatever we do with it, we are dealing with interpretation not translation.

    My personal view is that the them of 15:6 are the works of a believer (fruit) that were done outside the impetus of the Holy Spirit's enabling. What 15:6 is describing is in essence the judgment seat of Christ.

    [from a friend, acribos)
     
  11. Artimaeus

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    The one proper use of the vine is to bear fruit; failing this, it is good for one other thing—fuel. (See Ez 15:1–5).
    Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, (Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1998.

    Too much disecting of the illustration. Men do not throw branches into the fire to destroy the branches but to produce light and heat. Granted the branches are now of no further use but they at least provided one last use. God is telling us that we must bear fruit because He has no other purpose for us.
     
  12. BrianT

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    What then of this?

    verse 2:
    Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

    That seems to be the antecedent: every branch that is taken away. It's not talking about fruit (false or whatever) being burnt. Artimaeus is correct, a branch must remain in the vine and produce fruit, or that branch is cast off, withers and is gathered for burning.

    God bless,
    Brian
     

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