Impossible to Keep

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by DHK, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. DHK

    DHK
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    Impossible To Keep!
    Yes, another thread on the Sabbath! :tonofbricks:

    The SDA’s in all their naiveté, believe that the Sabbath, as described in the Bible is still possible to keep, and in their blindness insist that they do. I maintain that they cannot. It is impossible, especially in North America. Now where Bob lives, in Georgia, he might have a slight possibility of coming close to keeping the Sabbath if he lives in a rural area. But in the city? Nigh to impossible.

    Let’s start from Scripture. At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 the demand of the Judaizers was that the Gentile converts keep the Mosaic Law and be circumcised.

    Originally they would have preferred just to make the simple demand of circumcision, but they knew the inconsistency of that demand. To demand part of the law meant, logically, to demand the whole law. If they were going to demand the Gentiles to be circumcised they had to go all the way and demand that they keep the entire Mosaic Law! At least they saw the consistency and logic in their argument, something that the SDA do not see.
    Their first demand:
    Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

    Their revised demand:
    Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

    The Sabbath was given to Israel (Exodus 31) as a sign of the covenant between Jehovah and Israel and their generations forever. If one insists on keeping this law then they must insist on keeping all the law or at least all the relevant law that went with the keeping of the Sabbath.

    But I don’t live in the south. For the most part I live in the northern part of Canada, and the temperature at the airport a couple days ago was minus 40. That is the same in Celsius and Fahrenheit. It is just cold. It is impossible to keep the Sabbath in weather like this. Now there is a snowfall warning in effect.

    But I am not in Canada right now; I am on the mission field. I am in a third world country which could lend itself to keeping the Sabbath if one so desired.
    Here is my situation: how I live, and what I would have to do if I were SDA and wanting to keep the Sabbath.

    First, realize that in the OT, we have an incident of one being stoned to death because he picked up sticks on the Sabbath day. What are the sticks for? They are for fuel—the fire place: cooking, warming oneself, etc. For any North American to keep the Sabbath they would have to ask the power and gas company to turn the power and gas off before sunset every Friday, and not to turn it back on until after sundown on Saturday. You cannot use someone else’s fuel source. You are causing someone to work for you. That is a death sentence—putting a servant out to work. No electricity; no gas; no power; no heat;—not for the Jews—not for you.
    That means that without electricity, before sundown, you would have to light candles, and you would have to keep them Be sure you have gathered enough “sticks” to keep your candles lit or fires going. The Israelites didn’t have running water either, so you should probably shut that off as well. Again, to have it, you are causing other people to work.

    That wouldn’t be a problem with me. In the house that I live in the water is stored in a tank on the roof. It has to be pumped up there. That would have to be done before sunset on Friday, and hopefully everyone has by that time taken their showers and so on, for that one tank of water will have to last the entire Sabbath day without being filled.
    Our water pressure is similar to what you would get with gravity. It is not pressurized of course, and in the winter there is no hot water. (Shaving and washing are cold).

    Since I am unable to use the local water for drinking I must use bottled water, therefore I would have to buy enough water to drink before Friday sundown, and have all my food prepared and stored in a proper place.
    For cooking we don’t depend on someone else’s fuel source. We don’t have a city gas connection and are compelled to buy a gas or propane cylinder that we hook up to a small stove (two burners) which we cook on.
    As for heat, I live in a house that has no heat. It also doesn’t have any air conditioning, though we face extremely high temperatures in the summer (and I do mean extreme), and in the winter the lows are just barely above freezing. Sweaters and jackets in the winter, and dress appropriately and modestly for the heat in the summer. It is not comfortable living without electricity in a place like this in either season. (We have plenty of black-outs). An attitude of sacrifice is a must.

    The Jew could only travel 5/8ths of a mile. That is a Sabbath’s day journey. It is just over half a mile. If you are going to travel to church and back make sure your church is within a quarter mile of your house. Going there and back would be a Sabbath Day’s Journey, unless you are going the full half mile, staying overnight, and then coming back the next night. But if you live over half a mile or so from your place of worship you are not keeping the Sabbath, you are breaking it.

    You break it by using electricity of any kind—making coffee or tea, using lights, an A/C, or furnace (fan), computer, etc. It is your power source! Those were the sticks being gathered.
    The other power source is the gas that we use, especially in our furnaces and some of us in our stoves.
    If you use electricity or gas on the Sabbath you are breaking the Sabbath.

    The Law also specifies they type of clothing you must wear. You cannot wear “diverse kinds of clothing.” It must be all wool, or all linen, or all cotton. You clothing cannot be part wool and part cotton, or part nylon, etc. In fact, your clothing must all be of one kind from head to foot. If it is not, when you go to worship you will be improperly dressed and you will be breaking the Sabbath.

    The SDA “Judaizers” don’t realize their inconsistencies as the Judaizers of the first century did. If you keep part of the law, you must keep it all. It is not “I can keep this one part of the law, and I can keep it any old way I want” attitude. That is not acceptable to God. Israel was condemned for that and eventually sent into exile. God demands obedience in all things. If you say you must keep the Sabbath, then you must keep it according to the ENTIRE Law, not just according to your wishes, or the wishes of your founder.

    As I said in the beginning I live in Canada which also has extreme temperatures, like minus 40. I cannot turn off my electricity and gas in that kind of environment. It is impossible to be consistent and keep the Sabbath where I normally live. The climate wouldn’t allow it.
    But for Bob, I doubt if he could even dress properly, much less do without any other fuel source. I doubt if he could live without causing others to work—using the utilities that others are providing for you because they are working on the Sabbath Day. That violation results in the death penalty.
    Do the SDA’s really keep the Sabbath, or is it just a game they play? Truly they are deceived, and at the same time are deceiving others.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    1. It is totally bogus to argue that SDAs are the only ones who admit to, honor and KEEP the Bible Sabbath.

    a. Seventh-day Baptists actually made the case for doing so - to the early Adventists and this is how you even HAVE Seventh-day Adventists today!

    b. All the Messianic Christian groups are also keeping the Sabbath Holy.

    2. Even Sunday keeping groups like those who follow D.L. Moody and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and "Westminster Confession of Faith" on the subject of the 4th Commandment - all claim to be able to keep it Holy as God commanded.

    Though they select the wrong day (this is added for Pastor Bob and DHK since they seem to think I miss this detail each time I post it) - they certainly don't argue that it is "impossible to keep".

    All the groups above (not just SDAs as you have suggested) would deny your wild claim at that point.


    ==========================================
    I gave both Exodus 20:8-11 and Is 66:23 (come before Me to Worship" and Isaiah 58:13-14 and others. Would you prefer I include a verbatim quote of the texts I keep referencing?

    It just does not get any easier than this.

    The more you pretend you cannot/will not read these texts - and that I have not given them -- the more I will personally enjoy quoting them.

    Why do you think that is working for you?

    ==================================


    Recall that EVEN the "Baptist Confession of Faith" admits that there is a difference between civil laws of the Theocracy (now ended)and moral laws like the TEN Commandments (binding on ALL mankind since Eden).

    All can see that in section 19 of that document.

    Next - -your specific objections to the Bible Commandment.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    According to 'the Bible" here is how the Sabbath is kept. (Since so many here have asked that I read this to them - and I am very happy to do so.)

    Ex 20:
    8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

    9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

    10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.



    Isaiah 58
    “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
    From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
    And call the Sabbath a delight,
    The holy day of the Lord honorable,
    And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
    Nor finding your own pleasure,
    Nor speaking your own words,
    14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
    And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,

    Isaiah 56

    For thus says the Lord:
    “To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
    And choose what pleases Me,
    And hold fast My covenant,
    5 Even to them I will give in My house
    And within My walls a place and a name
    Better than that of sons and daughters;
    I will give them an everlasting name
    That shall not be cut off. 6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
    Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
    And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
    Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
    And holds fast My covenant—


    Is 66
    “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
    And from sabbath to sabbath,
    All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.


    NKJV

    And it shall come to pass
    That from one New Moon to another,
    And from one Sabbath to another,
    All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.


    Lev 23
    23 The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocationsMy appointed times are these:
    3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.

    I don't think you will find any whining or complaining about these texts and these observance details in Sunday keeping source documents (Emphasis for DHK to note the detail so often skipped over each time I mention it) such as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 or the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 or in D.L. Moody's online sermon on the TEN Commandments - in his 4th Commandment section. Nor will you find the Seventh-day Baptists complaining about these texts - nor the Messianic Jewish groups, nor R.C Sproul.


     
    #3 BobRyan, Nov 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Where did DHK limit it to SDA????


    None of these groups claim to keep the Old Covenant Sabbath. They make a clear distinction between the Old and New Covenant applications. SDA and Messianic groups not only claim to keep the Old Covenant Sabbaths but the Old Covenant dietary laws and many the Old Covenant Feasts in Leviticus 23. There is a drastic difference between those who claim Sabbath keeping as characterized under the New Covenant versus those who defend and keep the Old Covenant Sabbath and other Old Covenant laws as does SDA.





    They also distinguish between the Old and New Covenant administrations and totally repudiate all laws under the Old Covenant administration, including the Sabbath laws and seventh day "of the week" Sabbath.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    The reason that Israel while in the desert did not kindle fire on the Sabbath was ... "they were in the desert" and did not need to do it except to cook food - and God was already supplying that food.

    (And that seems to be the main issue that DHK has from what I can tell. As I point to the sources above (even Sunday Keeping sources) only those who object to God's Sabbath commandment seem to be dwelling on "gathering sticks").

    I don't "Gather sticks" on Sabbath - and I don't need to -- no not even for my fireplace.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    1. It is totally bogus to argue that SDAs are the only ones who admit to, honor and KEEP the Bible Sabbath.

    a. Seventh-day Baptists actually made the case for doing so - to the early Adventists and this is how you even HAVE Seventh-day Adventists today!

    b. All the Messianic Christian groups are also keeping the Sabbath Holy.

    2. Even Sunday keeping groups like those who follow D.L. Moody and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and "Westminster Confession of Faith" on the subject of the 4th Commandment - all claim to be able to keep it Holy as God commanded.

    Though they select the wrong day (this is added for Pastor Bob and DHK since they seem to think I miss this detail each time I post it) - they certainly don't argue that it is "impossible to keep".

    That would be here...

    Though I think we both know that SDAS are not the only ones who admit to and affirm the binding nature of all TEN of the Commandments.

    And the non-Sunday groups I listed above - actually believe in not editing/bending/wrenching the Commandments to the 4th commandment to point to some other day than what the Bible states.

    Both Seventh-day Baptist and Seventh-day Adventists keep the actual Seventh day as the Sabbath. BOTH claim to be under the New Covenant. As do Messianic Jews.

    I think we all knew that to start with.

    Even the Baptist Confession of Faith claims that the New Covenant is applicable to aLL TEN of the TEN commandments. For under the NEW Covenant the "Law of God is written on the mind and the heart" Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. JonC

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    I also understood this as being limited to SDA by the book end comments:

     
    #7 JonC, Nov 22, 2013
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  8. The Biblicist

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    Your explanation is bogus! God SUPERNATURALLY supplied food on the sixth day to avoid the NATURAL WORK of preparing a meal. The principle went beyond the wilderness into Palestine that all food preparation was to be done in advance of the Sabbath UNDER THE OLD COVENANT. Hence, food prepartion was in violation of the OLD COVENANT Sabbath. The New Covenant abolishes these Old Covenant laws completely including the dietary laws of Leviticus 10-11 which SDA demand must be kept thus proving they are keepers of the OLD COVENANT laws.
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    Did DHK say that? No! Just because DHK applied it to the SDA does not mean he limited it to the SDA. Do you really think he is that theologically ignorant? The only person on this forum that defends the Old Covenant Sabbath is Bob and he is SDA. DHK is simply addressing the SDA advocate on this forum. Now, you really don't believe that DHK is ignorant that others beside SDA are Saturdarians do you? So why make that assumption?
     
    #9 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2013
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  10. JonC

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    No, I don’t take it that DHK is ignorant (theologically or otherwise). His arguments themselves, IMHO, do not appear to be applicable to SDA alone – BUT I inferred by his comments that he was addressing SDA.

    I was not under the assumption that DHK holds the principle’s set forth as applicable only to SDA. I was under the assumption that he was limiting the discussion to SDA as….well, the discussion was limited in application by content of the initial post to the SDA. The argument could have easily been made, if DHK desired, without singling out a specific group (and I wouldn’t have made the erroneous assumption).

    You assumed my ignorance extended to the level of saying DHK believed it an error only when held by the SDA?
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    You inference was correct. However, to go beyond that inference and presume just because he was addressing Bob, who is SDA means that he is restricting the application of these arguments to SDA alone is an unwarranted presumption. Bob made an unwarranted presumption that was not called for. If DHK stated this is the SDA position alone, ok, then you have a point, but he did not and so such a presumption is based upon silence which is a rediculous basis for such a charge.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Agrreed - -his OP does make it appear that he imagines that the Seventh-day Baptists and other groups do not keep the Sabbath of the 4th commandment. However I am pretty sure DHK does know about them, he was just on a rant at the time of the post.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Your promotion of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and their acceptance of the 4th commandment as still binding on all mankind -tends to trash your entire rant against my post.

    The Baptist Confession of Faith claims the 4th commandment is binding from Creation to the cross on all mankind as what they even admit to being 'The Last Day day of the week" using (last day of the week to mean seventh day - so as to avoid being associated too closely with actual scripture).

    And even they "notice" a difference between the civil laws of the theocracy vs the moral law of God -which is what they themselves admit to being the TEN Commandments.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    You are doing a little revisionist history even as the thread demonstrates that you are changing the details.

    The OP is not "to Bob about how various denominations are keeping the 4th commandment".

    It is not "To Bob about the Sabbath no matter how many denominations affirm it".

    Rather the OP specifically says

    ============================

    Yes, another thread on the Sabbath!
    The SDA’s in all their naiveté, believe that the Sabbath, as described in the Bible is still possible to keep, and in their blindness insist that they do. I maintain that they cannot
    ....
    At least they saw the consistency and logic in their argument, something that the SDA do not see.
    ...
    Do the SDA’s really keep the Sabbath, or is it just a game they play? Truly they are deceived, and at the same time are deceiving others.

    ==================== end quote
     
    #14 BobRyan, Nov 22, 2013
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  15. BobRyan

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    So why do I reference the affirmation of the Ten Commandments put forth by these Sunday Keeping sources? Because some forms of war against God's 4th commandment are not endorsed by even Sunday keeping sources.

    =========================

    [FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    “The Perpetuity of the Law of God”

    Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.
    [/FONT]

    Section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith .

    Section 19
    . The Law of God

    • God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
    • The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

    • Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
    • To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
    • The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
    • Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
    • The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.
    =============================================
    Here Spurgeon's "Baptist Confession of Faith" insists the Sabbath was "changed"

    Section 22.



    Point 7

    [FONT=&quot]7. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]
     
    #15 BobRyan, Nov 22, 2013
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  16. BobRyan

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    Now I know that some here are commenting about my prior quote of Spurgeon and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" saying "yes but that is the edit of the prior 1689 original version -- what about that one??"

    I thought you would never ask. Notice that the 1689 version admits that in Gen 2:1-3 we have the first instance of the "Fourth Commandment" stated in brief. (Which gets us to their connection with this subject)


    =================================

    http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19



    THE LAW OF GOD


    19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
    (1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15
    (2) Gen 2:16-17
    (3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12

    19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in TEN commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3
    (1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
    (2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
    (3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4

    19.3 Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These were partly concerning worship, and in them Christ was prefigured—his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits.1 They also gave instructions about various moral duties.2 All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of the New Testament, when Jesus Christ abrogated them and took them away, for he was the true Messiah and only law-giver, and was empowered to do this by the Father.3
    (1) Heb 10:1; Col 2:16-17
    (2) 1Co 5:7; 2Co 6:17; Jude 1:23
    (3) Col 2:14,16-17; Eph 2:14-16

    19.4 To the people of Israel he also gave various judicial laws which lapsed when they ceased as a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation,1 but their principles of equity continue to be applicable in modern times.2
    (1) Luk 21:20-24; Act 6:13-14; Heb 9:18-19 with 8:7,13; 9:10; 10:1
    (2) 1Co 5:1; 9:8-10

    19.5 Obedience to the moral law remains forever binding on all, both justified persons and others,1 both in regard to the content of the law, and also to the authority of God the Creator who gave the law.2 Nor does Christ in any way dissolve this law in the Gospel, on the contrary, he strengthens our obligation [to obey the moral law].3
    (1) Mat 19:16-22; Rom 2:14-15; 3:19-20; 6:14; 7:6; 8:3; 1Ti 1:8-11; Rom 13:8-10; 1Co 7:19 with Gal 5:6; 6:15; Eph 4:25-6:4; Jas 2:11-12
    (2) Jas 2:10-11
    (3) Mat 5:17-19; Rom 3:31; 1Co 9:21; Jas 2:8

    19.6 Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works to be justified or condemned by it,1 yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty, and directs and binds them to walk accordingly.2
    It also exposes the sinful defilement of their natures, hearts and lives, and as they use it to examine themselves, they come to greater conviction of sin, humiliation for sin, and hatred against sin. They also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience [to the law].3
    Similarly, it is of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruption in that it forbids sin. The threatening of the law serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what troubles they may expect in this life because of their sins, even though they are freed from the curse and undiminished rigors of the law.4
    The promises of the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept,5 although these blessings are not due to them through the law as a covenant of works.6 If someone does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages the former and deters from the latter, that is not evidence of one's being under the law and not under grace.7
    (1) Act 13:39; Rom 6:14; 8:1; 10:4; Gal 2:16; 4:4-5
    (2) Rom 7:12,22,25; Psa 119:4-6; 1Co 7:19
    (3) Rom 3:20; 7:7,9,14,24; 8:3; Jas 1:23-25
    (4) Jas 2:11; Psa 119:101,104,128
    (5) Eph 6:2-3; Psa 37:11; Mat 5:6; Psa 19:11
    (6) Luk 17:10
    (7) See the book of Proverbs; Mat 3:7; Luk 13:3,5; Act 2:40; Heb 11:26; 1Pe 3:8-13
    19.7 These uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but are entirely in line with it, for the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the human will to do freely and cheerfully what the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.1
    (1) Gal 3:21; Jer 31:33; Eze 36:27; Rom 8:4; Tit 2:14

    http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
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    In Galatians 5 Paul warns that if you are "justified" by the law, you are a debtor to keep the whole law.

    What does that mean? If means if you believe you must keep the law to be justified, then you must keep it perfectly or you will come short and be damned.

    Paul then explains we have been called into liberty, but not to use this liberty to please the flesh, but by love serve one another;

    Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
    14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    This is our commandment as Christians, we are to love others as we love ourselves.

    We are not justified by this law, we are justified by faith in Christ, but it is our rule of life. It is how God wants us to live.

    As for days, the scriptures say let every man be persuaded in his own mind.

    Rom 12:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    If you want to go to church on Saturday, more power to you. You can go to church whenever you wish.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Now let's suppose for a moment that when we remind our Catholic friends about the 2nd commandment - not to use graven images in their worship services - the answer was....

    Wouldn't we be inclined to remind them that we are not talking about "justified by law" - just the fact that 1John 3:4 the Law of God "defines sin" and that the saints are not supposed to sin according to 1John 2:1.

    The same is true for "Honor your Father and Mother". In Mark 7 Christ condemns the Jews for stepping all over this commandment. They could have shot back that they did not want to be held to it - so they would not have to be "justified by law".

    I am sure that argument would not fly with Christ at that point.

    Indeed it does. And so Seventh-day Baptists and Seventh-day Adventists do not insist that the lost person must first "keep the Law" (stop sinning as John would state in 1John 3:4) to be justified.

    And this is the same thing we would say to the Catholic christian that complained about our insisting that the 2nd commandment is valid and should be obeyed.


    Indeed.

    And so ... that brings us to 1John 5.

    1. Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

    Is it any wonder then that John also says in Rev 14:12 that the SAINTS - are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"??

    So far that does not say anything that the Seventh-day Baptists, or the "Baptist Confession of Faith" or D.L. Moody would not also agree with.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Nov 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    does any here knew where in the NT , the Lord Jesus os one of His Apsotles place the burden of keeping the Jewish Sabbath back upon the Church under the new Covenant?
     
  20. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
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    They didn't. In fact no one has kept the Law, and those attempting to bring others under this yoke were rebuked in the NT, specifically in Galatians. SDA's speak more of Sabbath than of Christ and is it any wonder when His deity is denied in their system? :)
     

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