Featured Impossible to Keep

When you inform your Catholic friends that the 2nd commandment does not allow for the use of images in worship -- are you really suggesting that they use the 2nd commandment to "make themselves right with God"??

No??

Well if it is clear to you in the case of the 2nd commandment - how is it that you are claiming to be so confused when the same issue comes up regarding the 4th commandment?

in Christ,

Bob

 

That link says

The Origin of the Sabbath

When Yeshua taught that "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.." (Mark 2:27) His words do not point back to the Ten Commandments. They point to the action of G*d long before the giving of the Ten Commandments. They point to the original purpose and will of G*d. The Sabbath came into being as a final crowning part of the act of Creation. It was set apart at creation for the benefit of humanity. G*d's Sabbath rest was a divine example for the benefit of man. (Genesis 2:1-3).



http://www.messiahassembly.com/shabbot.asp


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I am not as convinced as you are - that this is an argument against the Bible Sabbath.


Here is more from that site -


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[COLOR=black][B][COLOR=navy]Observing the Sabbath was part of the covenant which G*d made with Israel at Sinai. Is It Applicable to All People?[/COLOR][/B]

[COLOR=navy] [COLOR=black] [B]We have shown that the Sabbath precedes the Mosaic covenant. [/B]It would seem reasonable to understand that some supposed annulment of that covenant would only annul the Sabbath instructions of that covenant. [B]The pre-Mosaic principle is still applicable to all who want the benefits of keeping the Sabbath[/B]. The setting apart of the Shabbot acknowledges the physical need of humanity for a Sabbath of rest. We are so constituted that the welfare of our bodies requires that we rest from ordinary labor at least one day in seven. The failure of many people to set aside a day of total rest may account for the staggering toll which stress takes on people in our modern society. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black] G*d set Himself, on the seventh day of creation, as the ultimate example. How can we ignore this ultimate example? If we do really love G*d, we need to spend time with Him. Indeed, we should crave to spend time with Him! We need to come to this one inescapable conclusion -- It is for our benefit! G*d is not a capricious diety like the "gods" of the Egyptians, antagonistic to the welfare of His creation, and making capricious demands so He can watch us dance like puppets on a string. He did not command the keeping of the Sabbath to make us give up something which was really for our benefit. Failure to rest one day out of seven hurts our health, hurts our families, hurts us emotionally, and hurts us spiritually. [B]Keeping the Sabbath is for our benefit. [/B]Can we point to a clear and unequivocal commandment that Gentiles keep the Sabbath? NO! [B]Can we point to sound and solid reasons for them to do so? Yes, a thousand times, yes[/B]..[/COLOR]
[/COLOR][/COLOR]

...
Some people seem to believe that the Ten Commandments is no longer a law from G*d. Logic demands that if we were to accept this doctrine, (which we do not} then we could ONLY assume that ONLY the Mosaic regulations governing the Sabbath were revoked.

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At the very least these guys are as 'enlightened' as the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and "D.L.Moody".

And given that many of these Messianic Jewish sources actually do keep the seventh day as is written in the Word of God - probably even more enlightened on that point - possibly more like the Seventh-day Baptists!

in Christ,

Bob

 

was jesus and paul BOTH wrong, as BOTH affirmed that we are saved by receiving the gift of eternal life by God in person of Jesus, NOT OF ANY WORKS?

And Paul asked you this question, how do you answer?
foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? zIt was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly aportrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: bDid you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by chearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? dHaving begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by1 the flesh? 4 eDid you suffer2 so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and fworks miracles among you do so gby works of the law, or by hearing with faith—6 just as hAbraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is ithose of faith who are jthe sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that kGod would justify3 the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, l“In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10 For all who rely on works of the law are munder a curse; for it is written, n“Cursed be everyone who does not oabide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that pno one is justified before God by the law, for q“The righteous shall live by faith.”4 12 But the law is not of faith, rather r“The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ sredeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, t“Cursed is everyone who is hanged uon a tree”—14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might vcome to the Gentiles, so that wwe might receive xthe promised Spirit5 through faith.

Galiatians 3:1-14 esv

How do you answer him then?

 

Rev 14:12 the SAINTS are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their FAITH in Jesus" --

The idea of "either have faith OR keep the Commandments" is not there for "the saints".

But for the lost - there is no "keep the Commandments" since they are lost and no amount of right doing will change that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Hence all the Bible texts I keep using and all the bible-avoidance seen in those who object.

in Christ,

Bob

 

the saints/saved are those who keep his commands, due to them ALREADY been saved by grace by Him, and that is what theuir new natures and the Holy spriti residing now in them desire to do!

NOT doing them to get or kept saved, but as result of being saved!

 

romans 11 you misuse
Ezeckiel 18 you misuse
reformed baptists misquote and use

ONLY things you have to fall back on are Ellen Whites erronous prophecies/doctrines!

 

Well... not in 'real life' as it turns out.


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]The OSAS argument dies here at several points.

1. It dies if the argument tries to ignore "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles."

2. it dies in that Paul's "Graft them in again" is specific to " move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them"
3. And it dies in that the gentiles that ARE saved are being grafted in WITH THEM - with the "SOME" of the Jews that are saved. " you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them"

4. And of course it dies in that the Gentile who 'stand by your faith" is being "Warned" about being cast into the lost position of those Jews who even OSAS people admit are lost.

"thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]OSAS does not survive Romans 11 once we admit that those who were cut off are lost and that "you who stand by your faith" are "saved" because you cannot warn the saved about becoming lost the way Paul does here in Romans 11 -- if you choose the tradition of OSAS over the Bible.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

Again .. ."not in Real Life" - but rather than turn this thread into another OSAS - thread - let's stick with the Commandments of God - and whether or not we should label one of them "impossible to keep".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Rev 14:12 the SAINTS are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their FAITH in Jesus" --

The idea of "either have faith OR keep the Commandments" is not there for "the saints".

But for the lost - there is no "keep the Commandments" since they are lost and no amount of right doing will change that.

That is true - they keep the Commandments of God "in real life" and the saints also have "faith in Jesus" in "real life"

Nice that we all agree on at least one thing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

i thought it was a little goofy.

I see- so then you want to claim this as a New Testament command for us?? really?? Even I was not going to go down that road!!

Turns out - the disciples were Jews who were taught the traditions of the Jews.

A more goofy hodge-podge link to Sabbath could hardly be imagined and would equally refute the command to not take God's name in vain or not worship with images -- were your logic at that point even valid.

HINT no New Testament text says "Scripture is just too difficult -- you really don't want to keep the Word of God until we write something new"

I think unbiased objective Bible students will see that point.

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here is how some of your own Baptists - have sorted this out.


This should not come as a surprise.

So then the "Baptist Confession of Faith" says.

[FONT=&quot]Section 19
. The Law of God [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of universal obedience which was written in his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]

You mix what your own sunday-keeping "Baptists" call the "sundry judicial" laws along with the "Mishnah" to get your "Sabbath days journey" and other items in your list.

Which you prefer to focus on instead of what you call "meaningless scripture" in Ex 20:8-11 calling for a day of rest on God's Sabbath, Is 66:23 Lev 23:1-3 calling for corporate worship on God's Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You asked for scripture on HOW to Keep Sabbath - what we are supposed to do.

I gave you these primary texts which you then call 'meaningless' scripture.

Even though it is incredibly obvious that it speaks to the very issue you pretend to be interested in .

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I assemble for worship on Sabbath according to Is 66:23 and Lev 23:1-3.

I refrain from daily work on Sabbath as per Ex 20:8-11, and Isaiah 58:13.

I keep Sabbath from 'evening to evening' as God tells us in Lev 23.

I admit that it is in the "Commandments of God" - yes even in the TEN Commandments.

And since God says it is the "Seventh day" that IS the Sabbath in Ex 20:8-11 and was made a holy day in Gen 2:1-3 -- and that is the "Holy Day of the LORD" in Is 5:13... well I honor His Day - His Way.

You are welcome. I have posted them dozens of times so far - but if now is when we make "the connection" well then wonderful..

Prior to this you had been referring to these texts as "meaningless" in terms of telling us "HOW TO KEEP" the Sabbath.

I view this is a big step forward.

That is an excellent question that does not arise from any text listed above.

How do you suppose that is??

Do you have an OT text that tells you "do not travel more than a Sabbath day's journey " and then specifies what that actually is according to God?

Or are you using the Mishnah as your guide and wondering if I am inserting the Mishnah into the texts I have listed?

I see- so then you want to claim this as a New Testament command for us?? really?? Even I was not going to go down that road!!

(No answer??)

OR are you not wanting to admit that these texts speak to HOW to KEEP the Sabbath - even as I point out the details of what they say on that subject?

Just why the bait-and-switch at this point - jumping over to the Mishnah?

Did you also find that in the Sabbath texts I quoted?

Where?

In the OT, basic human services were allowed on Sabbath - Christ included pre-cross acrts of mercy, healing, Church services, work in the temple and in the OT - even the "Ox in the ditch" type of work to provide for basic needs was allowed.

Luke 14:5
5 Then He answered them, saying, “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?”


However there are some Orthodox Rabbis today that might just affirm your view of the Bible - even if your own Baptist Confession of Faith rejects the path you are taking.

In our day and age - electric generators -- gas pipelines etc are either "on or off". Church services require basic necessities - like electricity and gas, heating, sound, lights, and the sick in some cases require electric devices to keep them alive or out of serious health risk, as well as providing heat etc.

The generators are "either on or off". And so as many even of your own Sunday keeping sources admit - Matt 12:1-12 provides for basic necessities met on Sabbath even though the disciples were not "about to die" yet meeting basic needs was acceptable.

As we can all see from the texts you are ignoring and your "reach" to asking about "stick"s etc - your interest is not in what the Bible says on "how to KEEP" the Sabbath but rather you seem to be trying to find an "any ol excuse" out here. Not exactly 'sola scriptura' testing of doctrine and practice.
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You then do not answer most of the questions listed and follow up with this

And you expect that to be taken seriously as a discussion of Sabbath texts in the Bible --- or is this your war against the entire scriptures as known to Christ and the Disciples??

in Christ,

Bob

 

Not sure how you expect that to be taken as a serious review of the texts listed.

Who does that work for?

in Christ,

Bob