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In Christ and the Blessed Virgin

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Yelsew, Jun 2, 2003.

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  1. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    CatholicConvert uses the signature, "In Christ and the Blessed Virgin" on every post made. The Holy Scriptures tell us to not be double minded, a house divided so to speak. So I'm interested in understanding how one can be "in Christ" and at the same time be in "the blessed virgin".

    Is that not being double minded? If not, why not?

    Does that not imply that the Christ and the blessed virgin are equals? If not, why not?

    We have the Christ whose Father is Divine Spirit, and we have Mary the mother of Jesus whose mother and father were both human beings, yet they are being treated as equals. Where in scripture is that illustrated? Are there two thrones in Heaven at the Fathers right hand?
     
    #1 Yelsew, Jun 2, 2003
  2. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Uh-oh. :eek: It is about to get interesting in here.

    Neal
     
    #2 neal4christ, Jun 2, 2003
  3. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    If "the blessed virgin" is a reference to the Bride of Christ, that is certainly a misnomer, because virtually every part of the Bride of Christ is redeemed from wretched sinfulness, made spotless by the "washing of regeneration" in the blood of Jesus.

    Not one part of the Bride of Christ, if referring to "the church", has "never known a man". Man is what the church is all about.

    If "the blessed virgin" is a reference to the mother of Jesus, why is it applied to the Bride of Christ? Can one marry his mother?
     
    #3 Yelsew, Jun 3, 2003
  4. Haruo

    Haruo New Member

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    About as easily as a man, being old, can be born again, perhaps.

    Are you denying, Yelsew, that Mary was (and at least in retrospect, is) a blessed virgin? Does your Bible not contain the first chapter of Luke?

    Haruo
     
    #4 Haruo, Jun 3, 2003
  5. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I do not deny that at the time Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary she was virgin, and remained so until some time after Jesus was born. But I believe that Mary honored her human husband through her wifely response to him. They were a natural couple doing what Husbands and wives do for each other, and thereby she ended her virginity, forever.

    For the purpose which God used Mary, she will always be virgin for conception through birth of the Savior of the world.

    She has not ascended to the Father's right or left hand, she has no supernatural powers of hearing or knowing, etc. She remains 100% human, died at her appointed time, faces judgment as all other men do.
     
    #5 Yelsew, Jun 3, 2003
  6. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Well it seems there is no explanation!
     
    #6 Yelsew, Jun 3, 2003
  7. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Before this can be answered properly, you must rid one of your false premises, that states that because he wrote "in Christ and the blessed virgin" that this makes the two equal. Perhaps you feel that it is implied, but it it is not, and wherever he is, he would answer the same.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #7 GraceSaves, Jun 4, 2003
  8. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Then explain.
    </font>
    • How is it possible to be "in" the blessed virgin?</font>
    • How one can be in one and another at the same time.</font>
    • What is meant by "in".</font>
    • Is Christ a concept?</font>
    • Is "the blessed virgin" a concept?</font>
    • How "the Christ", and "the blessed virgin" are connected today</font>
     
    #8 Yelsew, Jun 4, 2003
  9. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Yelsew,

    I've lost the name of the poster who offered the following bold statement, but
    it attests to the mindset of a good Catholic and follows my question.....

    Is there salvation Enmasse?

    There is no salvation outside of the Body of Christ.
    Outside of Christ there is death. To be in Him is to be alive. To be outside Him is death.

    The Church is referred to as the Body of Christ in Scripture.

    What do you not understand about that simple premise?

    God's salvation has always been corporate and familial, beginning with Genesis.
    Every dealing that God had in the OT, which precursors the NT, was corporate and familial.

    The above suggests that "in Him is to be alive".
    Following that line of thinking, maybe "in Mary" means to be alive too.
    Just another gross miscalculation, Yelsew. If you can't figure it out, count yourself
    blessed (You are promised protection from the wiles of the devil...remember? ) ;)
     
    #9 Singer, Jun 4, 2003
  10. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Yelsew --

    To begin my answer (I am quite pressed for time lately), please go to THIS THREAD and read my answer, # 4 down.

    Being "in Mary" has to do with the unitive familial concept of the covenant. By virtue of being "in Christ" through my baptism (please, not another baptism thread, just accept that for what it is), I am also place "in the Blessed Virgin".

    The picture of this is, of course, the smallest covenantal unit which God has placed upon the earth, the nuclear family. When my father gave me life, by the placing of his life giving seed into my mother, I became not just his, but theirs, one with both of them in that covenantal relationship called a family.

    Same principle applies to the family in Heaven.

    Cordially in Christ my covenantal Head, and the Blessed Virgin, the covenantal helpmeet,

    Brother Ed
     
    #10 CatholicConvert, Jun 4, 2003
  11. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    "No one comes unto the Father but by Me"......

    and THAT rule works just dandy any ole day you want to apply it !!
     
    #11 Singer, Jun 4, 2003
  12. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Ah, so you should be happy to hear that we, as Catholics, share this belief! Hooray for orthdoxy! [​IMG]

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #12 GraceSaves, Jun 4, 2003
  13. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    CatholicConvert, Convoluting the biblical message as you do, It is easy to see how you are confused.

    The mother of Jesus was, before being used of God, a meek and lowly virgin young person. God chose her and used her, making that which is holy within her womb, a separate but dependent life that is not in any manner whatsoever part and parcel of the Host virgin maid. There were no special powers given to Mary, other than that blessing of bearing and birthing the infant of God. Once that awesome task was completed, Mary returned to being totally human with ALL the same limitations that are common to man. Hypothetically, she could have become a prostitute without having a detrimental effect on God. No, I am not saying that she became anything other than a faithful wife to Joseph and mother to Joseph's children. God used Mary for his purpose to which she willingly complied, then gave her over to Joseph, to whom she also willfully yielded.

    There are no human families in the Kingdom of God! There simply is no need for such an arrangement. In the Kingdom of God we are eternal beings, who all receive our nutrition from the same source, there will be no procreation, or other sexual activity, no child bearing, simply no need for it. So your analogy fails.

    Mary is not raised to the nth power and seated at the right hand of Jesus, She does not wield a sceptor, she has no power to save, being one who is herself saved. She does not hear our prayers and pass them on via the golden bowls carried by the elders. She no doubt prays for us, afterall it is her son that does have the power.

    In your belief system you have raised Mary to a position that she does not occupy except in your mind.

    I am willing to be corrected, so if you have evidence that what you believe has foundation in scripture, I am willing to review such evidence and thereby be persuaded that you are right.
     
    #13 Yelsew, Jun 4, 2003
  14. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Amazing that you demand Scripture, and yet your little account of Mary at the beginning of your last post is not told in the Bible. It is all assumed, from negative Scriptural evidence.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #14 GraceSaves, Jun 4, 2003
  15. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Ah, so you should be happy to hear that we, as Catholics, share this belief!
    Hooray for orthdoxy!

    Yes I'm happy for you Grant.

    This could also be regarded as meaning "No one comes unto the Father by Mary"
    or "by Jesus AND Mary".

    We still in agreement ?
     
    #15 Singer, Jun 4, 2003
  16. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    You know, I always thought it funny how you guys can believe that Mary is who ya'll think she is---when after she gave birth to the Lord Jesus Christ--she birthed afterwards basically a disfuctional family---all of Jesus' brothers and sisters thought he was a goon!

    Good at raising the Lord--but needing the help of Dr. Dobson's series, "Turn Your Heart Toward Home" et el to raise the others---obviously she didn't remain sinless thoughout!
    Blackbird
     
    #16 blackbird, Jun 4, 2003
  17. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Take the shades off, Singer. How many times must it be written that we do not have Mary intercede for us to the Father. We don't do it. We don't do it. We don't do it. We don't teach it. We don't teach it. We don't teach it? Still not enough? WE DON'T DO IT AND WE DON'T TEACH IT.

    So, why do you keep saying it? Let me bold it for you: Why do you keep saying that we believe and/or practice that Mary intercedes/mediates between man and God the Father? Show me a Catholic document that espouses such a thing.

    Now, if you say it again, expect me to ignore the post, because as you can see above, the belief is abundantly clear. Misrepresent it at your own folly; I won't bite another time.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #17 GraceSaves, Jun 4, 2003
  18. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    Grant,

    What does the term "Pray for us now in our hour of need" mean if it is
    not mediation / intercession ? You expect Mary to intercede each time you
    pray.

    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Cottage/2239/mother.htm

    From this site we find:

    From a long time, OUR LADY has been seen by seers in a notable supernatural manifestations, bringing messages, teaching and let everyone knows
    about the LORD´s last Will. Of this mode, SHE guided us to the right
    way, of the justice and fraternal love. Has appeared in each place in a
    different manner of dressing and face expression, with appearance and
    name according HER desires or identifies the place of the occurrence.

    What do you call this, Grant. . . . ?
     
    #18 Singer, Jun 4, 2003
  19. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    What do you call this, Grant

    It's called: Mary praying to Jesus.

    Grant is denying that Mary bypasses Jesus and prays to the Father apart from Jesus.

    This is pretty simple.
     
    #19 Carson Weber, Jun 4, 2003
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Singer,

    I asked you the most absolutely direct way I possibly could...a single question. And your response...paid no attention to it.

    Thus, I assume, that this is a monologue on your part and no long a dialogue. I hope you don't mind if I don't respond to you anymore on this particular thread until you participate with me, not against me.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #20 GraceSaves, Jun 4, 2003
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