In Eph 2:1

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Judith, May 5, 2013.

  1. Judith

    Judith
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    In Eph 2:1 it reads;
    And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    What is the distinction between sins and trespasses?
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    Hey, Judith, I think this could be a profitable discussion.

    I just saw in Strong's that the word trespass speaks of a rebellion or crossing a line. And sin speaks of missing the mark (of holiness). I know that we can trespass against other and that they can trespass against us, but we sin (even in hurting others) only against God. At least that's what King David said.

    Just to make it interesting, let's throw the word iniquity in there, too. :laugh: :laugh:

    I'd like to hear what others say. There has to be a subtle distinction or the Bible wouldn't make a distinction - no?
     
  3. Van

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    Great question. It appears they are sometimes used to indicate an infraction of God's will interchangeably, but at other times a trespass seems to be a transgression of a known command of God, i.e. a violation of God's law as revealed in scripture.

    In Ephesians 2:1 we see them lumped together, thus a violation of either sort results in being "dead" or separated from our holy God, i.e. your iniquity has caused a separation.

    In Colossians 2:13 we see a third condition resulting in death, i.e. separation, the uncircumcision of our flesh. But we are made alive together with Christ. Interestingly, when God puts us spiritually in Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the removal of our body of flesh (sin). This may address our condition at conception where we are conceived in iniquity, thus separated from God even though we have done nothing good or bad.

    Here is a verse that shows the terms are used interchangeably to a degree:"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more," (Romans 5:20)

    Also consider that by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died, pointing to the iniquity of Adam causing, via the expulsion from the garden and separation from God, the consequence of all "in Adam" being conceived in iniquity and thus separated from God.

    Sin seems to cover any missing of the mark, from a blunder to an intentional violation, and as a subset, transgression or trespass seems to refer more often to volitional misdeed against God or our fellow man.

    Note that death reigned before the Law was given, pointing to sin encompassing more than being more than just a violation of the Law.
     
    #3 Van, May 5, 2013
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  4. Judith

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    That is a very interesting understanding. Some food for thought. :thumbs:
     
  5. Mexdeaf

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    Sin is a general term- defined as "missing the mark". Not that we are even trying to hit the mark.

    Trespasses are a little stronger - a "stepping over the line". We know what the line is but we choose to step over it anyway.

    Iniquity is strongest term (IMO)- it indicates bondage to sin. Many times used to refer to the sins of nations.

    O.S. Hawkins defines them a little differently than I do, but he gets the gist of it.

    http://oshawkins.com/sermons/transgressions-iniquities-and-sins/
     
  6. Van

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    I want to second Mexdeaf's post, and then add a little. Iniquity speaks more to the root cause of our condition rather than this trespass or that sin. These deep seated wrongful attitudes and behaviors reflect a godless condition. Thus our characteristics of iniquity are described as vile, hateful, unrighteous, rebellious, stubborn, corrupt. The flower is sin, the root is iniquity.
     
    #6 Van, May 5, 2013
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  7. Iconoclast

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    From Theopedia


    Biblical words for sin
    Hebrew

    The Old Testament uses 6 different nouns and 3 verbs to describe sin:
    râ?âh

    This term is used more than 600 times and is most often translated as "evil" or "bad" (^[Strong's\ #7451]^). It carries the implication of something that is contrary to God's nature.
    cha??â'âh

    This term is used almost 300 times and is most often translated as "sin" or "offense" (^[Strong's\ #2403]^). It carries the implication of that which is deserving of punishment.
    râshâ?

    This term is used more than 250 times and is most often translated as "wicked" (^[Strong's\ #7563]^). It carries the implication of something that is morally wrong.
    ?âvôn

    This term is used more than 200 times and is most often translated as "iniquity" ^[Strong's\ #5771]^). It carries the implication of being perverse, crooked or twisted.
    pesha?

    This term is used almost 100 times and is most often translated as "transgression" (^[Strong's\ #6588]^). It carries the implication of rebellion.
    'âsham

    This term is used more than 30 times and is most often translated as "guilty" (^[Strong's\ #816]^). It carries the implication of offense or trespass.
    tâ?âh

    50 hits ^[Strong's\ #8582]^ A primitive root; to vacillate, that is, reel or stray (literally or figuratively); also causatively of both: - (cause to) go astray, deceive, dissemble, (cause to, make to) err, pant, seduce, (make to) stagger, (cause to) wander, be out of the way.
    pâsha?

    41 hits ^[Strong's\ #6586]^ A primitive root (rather identical with H6585 through the idea of expansion); to break away (from just authority), that is, trespass, apostatize, quarrel: - offend, rebel, revolt, transgress (-ion, -or).
    shâgâh

    21 hits ^[Strong's\ #7686]^ A primitive root; to stray (causatively mislead), usually (figuratively) to mistake, especially (morally) to transgress; by extension (through the idea of intoxication) to reel, (figuratively) be enraptured: - (cause to) go astray, deceive, err, be ravished, sin through ignorance, (let, make to) wander.
    Greek nouns
    hamartia

    174 hits ^[Strong's\ #266]^ From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence, sin (-ful).
    parapt?ma

    23 hits ^[Strong's\ #3900]^ From G3895; a side slip (lapse or deviation), that is, (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression: - fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass. (Galatians 6:1)
    parabasis

    7 hits ^[Strong's\ #3847]^ From G3845; violation: - breaking, transgression.
    asebeia

    6 hits ^[Strong's\ #763]^ From G765; impiety, that is, (by implication) wickedness: - ungodly (-liness). (Romans 1:18)
    hamart?ma

    4 hits ^[Strong's\ #265]^ From G264; a sin (properly concrete): - sin.
    Greek adjectives
    pon?ros

    76 hits ^[Strong's\ #4190]^ From a derivative of G4192; hurtful, that is, evil (properly in effect or influence, and thus differing from G2556, which refers rather to essential character, as well as from G4550, which indicates degeneracy from original virtue); figuratively calamitous; also (passively) ill, that is, diseased; but especially (morally) culpable, that is, derelict, vicious, facinorous; neuter (singular) mischief, malice, or (plural) guilt; masculine (singular) the devil, or (plural) sinners: - bad, evil, grievous, harm, lewd, malicious, wicked (-ness). See also G4191. (Matthew 5:45)
    kakos

    51 hits ^[Strong's\ #2556]^ Apparently a primary word; worthless (intrinsically such; whereas G4190 properly refers to effects), that is, (subjectively) depraved, or (objectively) injurious: - bad, evil, harm, ill, noisome, wicked. (Romans 13:3)
    adikos

    12 hits ^[Strong's\ #94]^ From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1349; unjust; by extension wicked; by implication treacherous; specifically heathen: - unjust, unrighteous. (I Corinthians 6:9)
    anomos

    10 hits ^[Strong's\ #459]^ From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3551; lawless, that is, (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication a Gentile), or (positively) wicked: - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked. (I Timothy 1:9)
    enochos

    10 hits ^[Strong's\ #1777]^ From G1758; liable to (a condition, penalty or imputation): - in danger of, guilty of, subject to. (Matthew 5:21)
    Greek verbs
    hamartan?

    43 hits ^[Strong's\ #264]^ Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass. (I Corinthians 6:18)
    plana?

    39 hits ^[Strong's\ #4105]^ From G4106; to (properly cause to) roam (from safety, truth, or virtue): - go astray, deceive, err, seduce, wander, be out of the way. (I Corinthians 6:9)
    parabain?

    4 hits ^[Strong's\ #3845]^ From G3844 and the base of G939; to go contrary to, that is, violate a command: - (by) transgress (-ion).
    See also

    Sin
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    Think its contrasting less to more severe sinning against God and his ways!

    Also, though to ponder is

    Are we dead due to being found performing sins and transgression?
    Are we dead that result in sins and transgressions?
     
  9. Van

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    Another point in favor of "sin" being an umbrella concept encompassing all malfeasance are the verses that say Jesus came to take away the sin of the world and the sins of His people. Unlikely this does not include iniquity, evil, transgression, trespass, and everything else that piles up wrath or separates us from God.
     
  10. Van

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    One of the reasons we have to work so hard to gain an understanding of sin in all its forms is the same Greek word is translated into several words connotating sin, and then other Greek words are also translated in those same English words. Thus trespass becomes sin becomes transgression becomes fault becomes fall becomes offense. So we ride a merry-go-round trying to pin anything down.

    In our verse, Ephesians 2:1 we have paraptōma (Strongs 3900) and hamartia (Strongs 266). From Iconoclasts helpful post we see the idea of paraptōma is a lapse, slip or fall from righteousness. Thus a fault (faults) seems to capture the idea.

    Imagine a bible where paraptōma was uniformly and consistently translated as "fault(s)?"
     
    #10 Van, May 6, 2013
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  11. Van

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    Continuing down the list of Greek nouns, we come to parabasis (Strong's 3847) which appears to mean crossing over or transgression. What if this was the only Greek word translated as transgression. This Greek word appears 7 times and clearly points to violating a law or warning of God. See Romans 2:23; 4:15; 5:14; Gal. 3:19, 1 Tim. 2:14; Heb. 2:2 and 9:15.
     
  12. Van

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    Lastly we have Strong's 763 meaning ungodliness and Strong's 265, simply the neuter version of the female 266 meaning sin.

    As you can see, if we had translations that actually made an effort of translating a Greek word's meaning or meanings into a dedicated English word for each meaning, it would eliminate or largely reduce the overlap which obliterates the underlying distinction, this subject would be far less confusing.
     
    #12 Van, May 6, 2013
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  13. Yeshua1

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    Since there has not been one done yet like that, doesn't that suggest that its not possible to really do?
     
  14. Van

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    I believe the Digital Age has provided the tools needed to vastly improve our English translations. There is no need to translate the same Greek word, Strongs 3900, as trespass, sin, transgression, fault, fall and offense. And because we have another Greek word that actually means crossing over, i.e. transgression, this sloppy work hinders the message of God. We can do better.

    But it will take someone, a scholar, who actually understands why the text is translated this way and not that way to do the job. For example I look at an interlinear and wonder why Ephesians 2:1 is not translated "And you being dead to the faults and misses," when all the experts agree it should read "And you were dead in the faults and misses. It is easy to see what looks like faults to me, but to assume all of them are faults would be silly. OTOH, it would be folly to assume none of them are. :)
     
  15. Van

    Van
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    A study of John Chapter 9:1-7

    And as He (Jesus) passed by He saw a man blind from birth. Two things jump out, Jesus initiated this activity, He was intent on telling us something, and secondly, the man blind from birth appears to be a figurative illustration of our unsaved condition, born spiritually dead or separated from God and thus in darkness rather than light, and the darkness blinds us to a degree.

    And His disciples asked Him saying, “Rabbi who sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?” Here we see the false premise that all death and suffering is the result of sin and iniquity. Yes, sin can cause death, and iniquity can cause suffering, but our harsh providence also provides incentive to rely upon our Rock no matter the earthly circumstances.

    Jesus answered, “It was neither this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was in order that the works of God might be displayed in Him.” Clearly, not all pain and suffering is brought about by sin and iniquity, this man was born blind for a purpose of God. We do not know how long he was blind (how old he was when healed) but he was referred to as a man so probably older than 20. Consider the heartbreak of his parents, the number of bumps and bruises he encountered – this account and its lesson for us did not come cheap.

    “We must work the works of Him who sent Me, as long as it is day; night is coming when no man can work. Jesus is telling his disciples that not only Jesus must do what His Father gave Him to do which looking ahead includes the cross, that the disciples must also do what God has given to them to do, which looking forward includes pain and suffering for the sake of Christ. Our life is of uncertain duration, so we should do our best with the time we are given, and not burn daylight foolishly.

    “While I am in the World, I am the light of the world.” We should pay attention to the light, to the teachings of Jesus, because the light of Jesus lifts the darkness so we are not blinded by the darkness.

    “When He said this He spat on the ground and made clay with His spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes.” Some see a parallel with the creation account – Adam was formed of dust spiritually alive but sinned and was separated from God, cast into spiritual darkness. Jesus demonstrates that he can cure that curse, altering the man’s eyes so physical light could enter, and teaching that His light can lift the darkness of all who live in spiritual darkness.

    And He said to him, “Go wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated Sent) And so he went away and washed and came back seeing.” The pool was a large pool fed by a channel or Sender of the water and thus the pool was called Sent in Hebrew (Siloam). I think this may represent Jesus (the pool we enter to wash away our sins) and God (the Sender of the Lamb of God). Having been baptized into Christ we come out of the spiritual immersion a new creature with a new heart able to understand the leading our indwelt Helper and now dead to sins in a manner of speaking.
     
    #15 Van, May 7, 2013
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  16. Yeshua1

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    Wow, van just channeled the revelation of Kenneth Copeland here!

    It is the story of a man dead to the truth of the Baptism in the HG and the power to overcome illness!
     
  17. Van

    Van
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    Yet another post of disparagement, devoid of truth. All you seem to do is find fault with others, contributing nothing but distrust, turmoil and condescension.
     
  18. Judith

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    Wow lost to take in. Lots of good answers. Could it be summed up by saying it is the difference between individual sins that comes about from carelessness or lack of diligence and sinning with indifference?
     
  19. Mexdeaf

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    I look at them like this -

    Sin - missing the mark. Not that we are trying to hit God's "mark" - no, not at all - we have completely turned away from it and are aiming at other things instead.

    Trespass - going over the line. We know where God has placed the line but we go over it anyway.

    Iniquity - a trap. Sin is easy to get into, but hard to get out of.
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    One of them, missing the mark, does not address a persons attitude, they could be shooting for the mark with diligence and miss, or they could be unaware of the mark, like coveting without knowing coveting is wrong.

    But I think you hit close to the mark :) on the actual meaning of a lapse, slip or fall, i.e. sinning from a lack of diligence, carelessness.
     

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