In every political/economic system

You are in no position to pretend that you're the only one around here who's not "mixed up" or who's the only one whose "first allegiance is to God!" No one, except you, has brought up the subject of "it keeps being equated with Christ" - no one has even remotely suggested such a thing! One more time, EricB, the point being made is that we have been blessed by God by this great nation in which we live. The point is, in fact, that God is supreme over all things - including the so called secular world and the domain of civil government as well. You are confusing just about every point being made perhaps because you're very upset over something or someone. Friend, as fellow Christians, we are all His bond slaves. But, do you deny that God himself created the institution of civil government to serve His purposes on this earth? Do you deny that God has blessed America with its great political and economic systems? You are blind to history if you can not discern that! Do you deny that, even as Christians, we have enjoyed far better temporal grace under these systems than any other? You have tasted nothing else and are ignorant of the alternatives if you can not understand that! Be grateful to the Lord for all that He gives us and learn to recognize and appreciate those gifts even such as the nation in which we live. It is right under your nose! You do help our enemies when you put this down.

 

Alphonse de Lamartine, a Frenchman, commented a long time ago on his country's political failures by writing:

“The republic of these men without a God has quickly been stranded. The liberty won by so much heroism and so much genius has not found in France a conscience to shelter it, a God to avenge it, a people to defend it against that atheism which has been called glory. All ended in a soldier and some apostate republicans travestied into courtiers. An atheistic republicanism cannot be heroic. When you terrify it, it bends; when you would buy it, it sells itself. It would be very foolish to immolate itself. Who would take any heed? The people ungrateful, and God non-existent! So finish atheistic revolutions!”

It's more food for thought about where we've been and we're we might go!

 

No one said you should be ashamed of America. The trouble is if we don't hum the National Anthem while we post, you accuse us of being "socialists."

It looks like you worship America, something I will not do!

 

And that sounds like God is specifically invested in this nation, rather than working on the individual level. In the Old Covenant, God worked through a nation. After Christ, the "holy nation" is now spiritual. In America, there have always been true Christians and non-Christians or nominal/cultural Christians. The latter group has more recently risen up, and used an electronic media that did not exist 200 years ago, the promote its beliefs and values. (And this, largely because many Christians in the past shunned the world, yet expected the maintain influence over it).

Again, now, it looks as if God is particularly uinvested in this nation as a whole, and now, the "basic ideals" are like sort of an extension of scripture, that both we and God judge the nation over.

That is more of a reaction to a lot of the evils of the past, which are justified as God's doing, or just "little, occasional flaws". And yes, some want to completely overturn the system; some want just to fix the problems, but rely on policies that don't work, and then others are just trying to set the record straight. Of course, you have set it up like some titanic battle of the ages, where you're the good guys, and those dreaded liberals have nothing better to do than take away what God gave you. Now, think about that. Is that reality, or it is something we got out of a fictional story (Superfriends vs Legion of Doom)?

I've told you where I stand, but because it's not taking a stand on one side or the other, to fit your "good vs evil" story, you dismiss it.
I'm only obligated to God to sumbit to the powers that I live under. And that i do. I don't have to like it, any more than the Christians liked being under the Romans. As I said earlier, I do not know what it is like to be under another system, so it's hard to completely compare. I know some things I hear about, I do not like, such as dictatorships, or persecution of Christianity. So I do not push for those systems either. I'm used to this one, so this is what I want to stick with. Yet there are problems here I see, that I think can be addressed, and I'm into addressing them more than imposing a solution.* I become alarmed when I see people taking hard sides, and then pl;acing blame squarely on the other. It is never all one side's fault. so the problem will never be solved that way. Yet, people will get a good fix stroking the ego doing that, as the nation slides into chaos.

As I pointed out in the Grasshopper thread, your side had an almost solid three decades of convervative leadership, but you're still not happy, and still constantly griping about the liberals. Something is surely amiss. Something must not be working on your side, or, the focus is off. So I get tired of the blaming, and I have the right to voice my opinion about it.

* A long time ago, I tried to start a thread on temperament (which is connected with "personality type"), but it never caught on. Some Christians use temperament and type (Like LaHaye), while others, especially the old-liners, condemn any form of "psychology" just like they condemn CCM and modern Bible translations. But that explains my outlook. I'm more into thinking and looking at possibilities than planning and implementing. And I lean toward logic more than values (such as loyalty to a nation or cause, etc), which I tend to see people becoming self-righteous with at times, and hence react.

Again; why don't you follow your own admonition here, when you and others want to rail on about "grasshoppers" and other "enemies" and their systems trying to take something from you. Again; only you are allowed to complain about anything. It's all about us, and Satan's master scheme is for these "enemies" to do something to us. You may not have directly equated the nation with Christ, but all of this rhetoric clearly implies it.

You have all these blessings you talk about, but are not happy with them, because of what you think someone else is doing or trying to do. Yet you try to tell me to be uncritically happy.
By your own statement there, those liberal "civil governments" are also under God's authority. If He wants or allows them to take us over, then that would just as much be apart of His will. But no; not us! God would never allow that on us, or if He does; it's all these stinking liberals' fault. Again; who do we think we are?

Stop trying to pacify me. As I just said in the other thread, this subforum has long been a huge gripefest, and I only recently began joining in. So All of these threads, I see your side complaining about things; (I didn't start these topics), and then I jump in, offering another perspective you are ignoring. Didn't say I was in any special position where I see everything clearly, but I can surely see some things others (especially those towing a party line) have missed. You are so immersed in your ideology, you see me as "whining" and all of this other stuff, but don't recognize the familiar background noise that has already been going on.

 

We have been very blessed and the blessing is worth preserving and defending. That's why people have been willing to fight for it and it's why people resist the constant trend to destroy the foundations. I'm not at all unhappy about the foundations - the fundamental design of our economic and political systems - because I know they're the best every devised. I'm unhappy about the liberals who seek to change it all - the banner of "change" in the present administration speaks to such things - and, also, those who will not take any stand at all and thereby lend passive support to the destruction of our foundation.

Nothing happens without God's permissive or directive will. Such things are always a big mystery. We cannot explain for certain why one thing or another happens. We just know that God is in control. At the same time we also know that He gave us a will to make decisions and take actions that could be in or out of obedience to Him. In America we created a civil government that is owned by the people. Its laws are created by representatives of those people. Its powers are limited by the people. We have a contract with our governments that defines what they can do and we kept everything to be dealt with otherwise. Therefore, in essence, we are the government and responsible for what it does and does not do to us. That means we must be active in the process, vigilant to protect the contractual boundaries, and firm in requiring compliance by those agents we put in place to administer our law and judge our law. We do not have a King in America.

I cannot know God's great plan for certain except to be secure that it will all end well. I can, however, read the Bible and study history and make observations of what has happened before. That leads me to believe that nations who do not honor God - give thanks and praise, humbly seek His will, make Him the center of their direction - ultimately fall. I don't want that to happen to America. The liberal movement is aggressively working in the opposite direction and, unfortunately, they have made considerable progress. The conservatives have failed becoming confused with compromise and concern with popularity instead of principle. That's why we don't hear much of the kinds of things today that are exemplified by the examples I've posted. Men once clearly understood that America's greatness depended squarely upon God's providence. Now they think more in human terms believing they can through government make all things right and deal with all problems by the creation of a perfect society on earth run by their own ideals minus God's hand. They will fail - God will prevail.

 

Their has been no rhetoric on my part to equate America with Christ. I have no idea how you can make that kind of silly deduction.

Their has been a lot of rhetoric from you that could lend much support to our enemies. Perhaps you do not see them as our enemies?

 

A.A. Hodge wrote about the Christian's duty in civil government over 100 years ago:

"A Christian is just as much under obligation to obey God's will in the most secular of his daily businesses as he is in his closet in prayer or at the communion table. He has no right to separate his life into two realms, and acknowledge different moral codes in each respectively - to say the Bible is a good rule for Sunday, but this is a week-day question; or the Scriptures are the right rule in matters of religion, but this is a question of business or of politics. God reigns over all everywhere. His will is the supreme law in all relations and actions. His inspired Word, loyally read, will inform us of His will in every relation and act of life, secular as well as religious, and the man is a traitor who refuses to walk therein with scrupulous care. The kingdom of God includes all sides of human life, and it is a kingdom of absolute righteousness. You are either a loyal subject or a traitor. When the King comes, how will he find you doing?"

God - the one and only true God - must remain the ultimate counsel of wisdom for the effective governance of our nation. Tolerance for all men - believers and unbelievers - is desirable only because it protects the believers as much as the unbelievers from the potential abuses of government and provides common grace for all. It should not attempt to supplant the Church, the family, or the master because that will lead to corruption. Hence the separations are wise, prudent, and Biblical. But the foundation of those who implement our government must be Christianity - no other belief systems - else it will be ultimately be misdirected by the sinfulness of man into a gross corruption of its original purpose. This is not politically correct but it is none the less correct.

 

So, we should be thankful about the the nation's past ideals, but unhappy about the present, where these liberals have messed it all up, and thus vigilant to try to restore the past. And it sounds almost as if God is holding us up to staying true to the nations' previous ideals; like that is some sort of duty before God.
So this is why it's OK for one side to complain, but not the other. The past is the default state sanctioned by God, and which all men of God should be thankful for, while any change from that is abhorrent to Him, and should be resisted by His people.

For one thing, would you say a person who would have been a slave or otherwise have no rights and be persecuted back then should still be happy about it, and not appreciate the changes that have been made since, often by this same "liberal" movement? You may argue "well, that was just an honest mistake, so be appreciative of the ideals apart from that", but then we are no longer looking back at actual history, but rather something changed from that. We must separate ideals from actual reality.

I see the nation as doing a flip. You once had more Christian ideals, yet everyone was not treated equal. that was a shameful bad testimony in the name of God/the Bible that would have corrected the behavior if it was read consistently, but was misused to justify it instead. So now, they jettison the old abuses, but then also jettison God/Bible along with it.
The real ideal is to have both God, and full human rights. They had the opportunity for that in the past, but blew it. Now, we have to deal with a current nation that traded one for the other.

So this is basically a "paleo vs neo-conservative" thing.
Of course, all of the modern Republicans have tried to use government to enforce conservative principles, which is seen as a compromise. I always noted the double-standard.

So just curious; who is truly conservative enough for you? I know six years ago, we had several people here favoring Peroutka, who seems a bit radical. Even the opposition to him was less on his policies, but rather more on the basis that they knew he was not going to win, and that the votes would end up going to the Democrats. Is that who you like? I see he dropped out for the '08 election, because the Constitution Party softened on abortion. So who then is God's man or party for the country?

The fact that He supposedly so blessed this nation over all others, apparently. You say you don't know why, but that's what it sounds like.

Also, you said that I'm "confusing just about every point being made", but again, the OP's point was comparing this system with the others; both resulting in 10% of the people at the top profiting. There was nothing about "thankfulness", for God's special providence of the nation, but you turned it to that.

Enemies like who? These militias, who commit or plan destruction of the government, taking innocent citizens out with them? Make no mistake, if you're in the wrong office building when they attack, they'll kill you too. But they all claim to be upholding these same values of the past, and the Constitution, and vigilant in opposing the liberals. That's what they're all about. Do you see them as enemies?

 

Get a gripe on it, EricB! We're not talking about criminals and nut cases - we're talking about real enemies bent on destroying America if they can.

 

He has blessed this nation more than any other I know about at least in modern times and, no, I don't know why God does what He does and neither does anyone else for certain. He is God and He is truly sovereign so He does what He wants for the reasons that please Him. My point was that there's no rock solid merit for Him having so blessed America - only a rock solid reason for us to praise Him for it. Why don't you get on board with that, EricB, instead of fussing so much about what you can not understand that God has done for us - just praise Him for it instead.

 

You're really bent on twisting the words, aren't you?

We should be thankful for God having blessed us with such a wonderful economic and political system relative to so many other options we could be living with and, at the very same time, we should do all that we can to preserve and defend the fundamental core of our nation and seek to restore it where it has drifted away. It's not that difficult of a concept for most Americans to grasp unless, of course, they don't value the core at all. In that case they don't see anything wrong with tearing it apart.

 

I have not had a candidate conservative enough for me in several decades, my friend, and I'm not seeing any on the horizon either. It's easy to spot those that are way off to the left and many who, compared to them, seem conservative but, in reality, they've all drifted in the same direction. Regardless, I vote for the best candidates that run and that have a chance to win and I communicate regularly with whomever wins to make sure they understand my thoughts.

That's what happens when a nation starts to forget their roots and the rock upon which they were founded. That's what happens when conservatives start to compromise in order to be perceived as "getting along" and " getting something done" when they should really insist on doing nothing about most issues that come before Congress. That's what happens when we start to forget that God was the source and sustainer of our blessings - not our own wisdom, power, or fortune.

The decline is greatly aided along by those who preach that there nothing special about America and its systems were and are no better than any other. It's part of the normalization of all value systems that brings everything down to the lowest common denominator. That's a problem I have with what I believe is your point of view.

 

Man you sure do extract some weird and false conclusions from what I've written! What's behind that door?

 

Patrick Henry wrote this in 1765 on the back of the Stamp Act Resolves:

"This brought on the war which finally separated the two countries and gave independence to ours. Whether this will prove a blessing or a curse, will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings, which a gracious God hath bestowed on us.

If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable.

Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself, and encourage it in others."

I encourage you all to be wise and be grateful to God for the blessings He did bestow on us and take really good care of them in whatever occasion you have opportunity to do so.

 

And that's what these are; or are they not really enemies (just this separate category of "nut cases/criminals") because thay happen to share conservative idology.

So who are all of these other enemies, then? Islamists, I guess, and socialists; right? And wy would you say all of these people are against us?

Because I see too many people use that "you cannot understand" line to justify doctrines they read into scripture, but don't make any sense. I still do not see where America has any special divine standing. It has some good points we all enjoy; and some bad points that both of us complain about; only you complain about one set, and I complain about another. You have yet to really show why your complaints are legitimate and not mine, so I should only be thankful. You only say because yours are based on maintaining the nation's original ideals; and this whole thing about "God's providence" seems to be the rationale behind it. But you have not proven this. You use it as self-proving or something.

Well, that was apart of that "fundamental core" pf the nation (in practice), so to go back to everything everything we have "drifed away" from would seem to include that.

You think I'm extracting weird stuff from your statements, but the problem is, you have not considered the full implications of this ideology you are parroting.

Truth is, you are still not completely thankful with what the nation really is, as opposed to some ideal that I believe it has never lived up to.

So still curious; who is the last candidate who you really stood behind?
Perhaps the reason there are non today that meet your criterion is because some of the ideals are too unrealistic, and this is a free country; not a theocracy, so no, not everyone is going to believe in or follow God, and favor Biblical morality, and our economic system is not even Biblical to being with. I se ti as always a secular nation, though in the past, it was more culturally "Christian". Everyone admits that not everyone was truly born again back then, but it's like they still get some sort of merit for at least promoting His name more publically. That's why you think it was so divinely favored in the beginning, but God is not obligated to favor people who just identify with Him in some loose cultural sense.

No, thinking we're so "special" is pride, and pride comes before a fall. You then overlook all your own shortcomings, and seek to blame everyone else for your problems. So they never improve, and that's when those problems pull you down. But of course, you go down still pointing fingers at everyone else. And again, beliving you are better is not what God ever encourages for His people, but rather more the opposite.

 

You're still not getting it! I haven't said God was "obligated" to favor us. I've just said that He has blessed this nation greatly because He wanted to do so. It's very simple, EricB!

 

There's a big difference in criminal acts and acts of war. The first requires a law enforcement response but the second requires a military response. I know a lot of people have trouble sorting these out.

 

It's not some tale I've made up in my life time, EricB! Read the preponderance of statements recorded during the founding of the nation - like the several examples I've posted in this thread - and there you will find the proof if you're open to it.

 

Baloney, EricB, pure baloney!