In Moderation....

To me personally, moderation includes having a glass of wine, for the stomach's sake and as a preventative of other heart, blood, vascular and digestive ailments.

This also answers to the question as to the "gift of God".

Wine is a natural medicine:

Most Christians feel no compulsion about taking prescription drugs which are far more toxic than God's natural gifts of wine and olive oil.

If one has a problem with wine, these substances which naturally occur in wine have now been identified and are available as extracts without the alcohol.

HankD

 

The notion something is bad because it's manmade is what is ridiculous. Coke, twinkies, red vines, all manmade.

 

Pulpits and Pews are also man made. Churches should dispence with them. It is clear from reading the bible all Pews and Pulpits have no place in christian churches since they are not mentioned in scripture. Even during the discription of the last supper it was noted that the disciple Jesus loved layed is head on Jesus therefore indication they were reclining on couches. therefore churches need to take out Pulpits and pews and replace them with couches or we have offended the Lord!!!!! Selah.

 

So, why are you here spending all your valuable time doing just that?

 

The line for moderation moves further away with each drink. Wherever that line is, it will almost certainly get one arrested while driving under the influence. It's amazing how little alcohol it takes.

 

You just answered your own question.

 

Good point.

Some of us belong on our artificial man made knees when we approach God. Not man made couches.

 

You seem to assume that a person with commitment to moderation just has a heart full of good intentions, but no self-discipline or a practical plan to prevent intoxication (like limiting drinks, consuming food with beverages, and having a healthy environment of positive peer pressure not to overindulge).

What you are describing is someone who has a problem with alcohol, who has no business consuming alcoholic beverages.

Frankly, consuming alcohol in moderation (avoiding drunkeness) is very easy to do if you have no intention or interest in getting intoxicated, and take very simple precautions: such as limiting drinks, consuming food with beverages, and enjoying the good gift of alcoholic beverages with others who have the same commitment.

A faulty conclusion based on a faulty assumption.

 

I repeat , there is nothing in scripture to indicate drinking alcohol is a sin.

Why are you so defensive?

 

I assume nothing.

Ask any alcoholic that has come to grips with their addiction. One is too many and 10 is never enough. Some of them never get past the moderation point. They pass out first.

Why are you so defensive?

 

You just don't get along with anyone, do you?

 

There are two aspects. There is nothing in scriptures condemning alcohol. There are scriptures which discuss abuse. But as with all things. Anything not in moderation can be sin. Inlcuding food. Certainly Jesus made wine in Cana not the tired old assertion of Grape paste juice. So certainly Alcoholic beverages can be a "gift" from God. Especially when noted health benefits to the heart and the longer healthier life span of those living on the Med where wine consumption is standard. The other aspect is that we are reminded that we are our brother's keeper. Paul told us (when discussing food offered to idols) that if someone believes something is sin then it is sin to them. And we should not be a stumbling block to other believers. Certainly we have freedom but it should not be lorded over those who do not feel they are free to do so. Knowing that Alcoholism is a disease very likely linked to genetics how responsible is it to openly consume these types of drinks? So we have the freedom to drink moderately yet we have the responsibility for watching out for our brothers and sisters in the Lord who cannot handle this beverage. Some churches for this very reason making it a rule not to support it for their benefit and I can see why. Also note we are responsible for our families and in our american culture drinking is usually to the excess. especially for the young. Does drinking in front of children (in the privacy of your own home)show to them in the context of our culture that you are acceptant of the culture which leads to excessive drinking? So these are just somethings I consider when I think about drinking alchohol.

 

Sure you do.

1. You started your responses in this thread saying you “know of nothing good that comes from the consumption of [alcoholic beverages].”

2. You claim “[m]ost people don't know when they've had enough.” I disagree with that assessment, because I think that many people drink to get drunk, so they proceed to do it. Those who have no desire to get drunk can avoid it very easily with a few common-sense precautions. (Of course, you have asserted there is “no good argument” against your opinion, so there’s no real point in engaging you on the subject since you claimed your opinion cannot be successfully challenged.)

3. You claim “even a modest amount of alcohol impairs ones abilities and judgement.” Since you don’t define “modest”, there’s no way of knowing what you mean by it. However, you keep throwing out examples of alcoholics for which “[o]ne is too many and 10 is never enough. Some of them never get past the moderation point. They pass out first.” If someone is passing out, they are obviously not drinking in moderation. (But then again, you have asserted there is “no good argument” against your opinion, so there’s no real point in engaging you on the subject since you claimed your opinion cannot be successfully challenged.)

4. You assume people who disagree with you regarding issues of moderation are “defensive” about it. Have you considered that not everyone considers your pronouncements unassailable and are simply attempting to respond to your arguments?

One’s blood alcohol level has to approach 0.40% for someone to pass out under normal conditions. A person who drinks in moderation is going to have a blood alcohol level somewhere around or below 0.02%. So your example of someone “never get[ting] past the moderation point” has at least 20x the alcohol content of one who truly drinks in moderation.

Clearly, you are imagining a completely different scenario than those of us who consume alcohol in moderation.

Who likes to be compared to someone who drinks until they pass out (clearly someone who has a major alcohol problem) when they are not behaving that way at all?

When I was a kid (I’m 44 now), I knew a lot of adults with “Baptist guilt” over the consumption of alcoholic beverages. My parents didn’t raise me that way. My father was a Baptist deacon’s son who was constantly preached at (both at church and home) that alcohol was absolutely sinful and that if a person had a single drink, it would lead to another, and another, and another until they were face down in the gutter. Then World War II began for the U.S., and he went to boot camp. After completing boot camp, his unit was bonded as a team and they were given leave. After that grueling experience, he went out with his friends to celebrate. “Knowing” he was going to end up in the gutter anyway, he starting drinking non-stop until somehow finding his way back to base with the help of more experienced friends. But my dad really enjoyed the taste of beer, and it was one of the few ways to do something socially in the areas he was stationed. He realized pretty quick that he actually had the ability to have one or two beers and then stop, maintaining control and sobriety, while enjoying relaxation and camaraderie with his fellow soldiers. However, returning to the States after the war, he found himself back in the Baptist bubble, with all kinds of ignorance about alcohol being presented as fact from the pulpit.

All that being said, he had children later in life (I was born when he was 40), so he had made some decisions about how I would be raised that were different than other Baptist kids at my church. My parents never said alcohol was evil. We didn’t drink much in our home for various reasons, but my parents made it clear that drunkenness was the real evil. Sometimes there was a beer or two in the refrigerator, and occasionally a bottle of wine for a special occasion, but I was never tempted to try it. My parents even let it be known that if my brother and I wanted to taste what beer and wine tasted like, we should ask them and we would talk about it. As far as I know, neither one of us did. Therefore, when the teen rebellion years came around, almost all of my Baptist friends were heavily into consuming dangerous quantities of beer and hard liquor, while I had no interest in it. Certainly, I had a modest bit of teen rebellion, but I wasn’t involved in the incredibly dangerous, drunken trips across the state line to Louisiana (where the de facto drinking age was “tall enough to put your money on the bar”) or the late night parties where alcohol and drugs were passed around.

While many Baptists think unbiblical restrictions on others regarding the use of alcohol are a good way to prevent alcohol abuse, I suspect that it backfires more often than not.

 

Yes, absolutely.

Yes, quite right.

Yes. We need to be careful what we do in front of the weaker brother or sister.

Certainly there may likely be some sort of genetic predisposition to alcoholism (and other addictive behaviors and sins), but there is also personal responsibility that plays into these things. If you know there is a history of addiction in your family, you probably should abstain. That’s a wise and prudent thing to do. And Christians should not try to force alcoholic beverages on another person, nor socially exclude or ostracize anyone who is not consuming an alcoholic beverage.

Absolutely.

Sure. Yet there are some Baptist churches (like where I am a member) that do not make an issue of it either way unless there is abuse of alcohol. Then church members intervene on behalf of their brothers and sisters. Furthermore, it is not unusual for church members to have alcoholic beverages together at informal settings. Once a month, the men of my Sunday School class (actually, it has become more intergenerational than that) meet at a local restaurant that is also a microbrewery to have a glass of beer and talk about life, faith, and family in a relaxed and casual atmosphere. Some of the most God-honoring and spiritual conversations I have heard in my life have been around those tables. No one gets drunk (or even close to it) since there is enormous peer pressure to have no more than two beers over the course of two to three hours (with a meal). We don’t advertise the group (although we don’t hide it either) and people are invited by word of mouth or e-mail. We also invite unchurched people to join us and have built many relationships. (They don’t get drunk either.)

Yes. That’s why Christians should consider modeling a biblical example of drinking in moderation instead of excess. We will have more influence over our culture by doing things biblically instead of legalistically.

If you consistently model moderation and you talk about it with your children, it rejects the culture of excessive drinking and provides a healthy and biblical alternative.

And they are good things to think about. :thumbs:

 

This is such a good point. I have seen this happen time and again. Not just with alcohol either. This happens with legalism in general.
It is hard to raise children in legalism and have them turn out with Biblical attitudes. They tend to either rebel or become legalists themselves.
Or in some cases both at various points in their lives.


One other point I have never seen mentioned, what about those who are able to more easily drink in moderation than to abstain altogether?

Just as in dieting, when you try to go off something cold turkey it is easy to rebound and binge.

I have actually heard testimonies of former drunks who were now able to drink moderately.