In Moderation....

Moderation according to my home state is making sure your blood alcohol level does note exceed .08 percent. According to http://www.ou.edu/oupd/bac.htm I can drink 5 beers in an hour and still be legal to drive with a BAC of only .06. (I'm a big guy) Having been a VERY modest social drinker in the past, I know for a fact that if I would drink 5 beers within one hour that I would be absolutely snockered and totally unable to drive a vehicle.

With each drink taken, a person's level of responsibility drops, making them less and less able to determine if they should really be driving or not. They are incapable of determining for themselves if they should be driving or not.

Personally I'm wondering why the liberals aren't all over this... Any level of BAC is an impairment to a driver and they're just an accident waiting to happen. Think of all the lives we could save!

http://www.cdc.gov/MotorVehicleSafety/Impaired_Driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html

 

No, the issue is that scripture allows it, so it's a matter of individual liberty.

It's inconsistent to base what scripture permits on the opinion of the nonbeliever.

So is traffic court, so let's abolish driving, since those folks lack discernment.

 

You do love your strawmen and red herrings. But...

Try to stay on topic. That is "Moderation".

No one that I know of has questioned what scripture says.

If scripture tells us somewhere what a moderate level of alcohol is, please point it out to us. But it appears God left it up to the judgement of the individual.

I don't believe anyone is all that interested in abolishing traffic courts that deal with those who lack "discernment", many of whom are, without doubt, Christians.

So try hard to stick to the subject.

 

The straw man and red herring belongs to the one who claims that scripture forbids consumption of alcohol.

He did. So leave it to the individual, rather than judging for the indivual.

The subject is easy: Scripture permits the consumption of alcohol, but forbids drunkenness. Why is that so hard to understand? It is the "no alcohol at all" crowd that are finding this concept hard to understand.

 

Why are you so defensive?

 

A better question might be to ask people to biblically define "drunk" or "drunenness".

 

Two sides of the same coin.

Moderation/drunkenness

The Bible defines neither.

 

The Bible doesn't need to define them. Scripture isn't a dictionary. Common sense dictates what constitutes drunkenness. A reasonable person in Jesus day would have recognized drunkenness.

 

Most people apparently have no common sense. :thumbs:
Being a Christian doesn't seem to alleviate that problem.

But it also seems that the Bible refers to drinking "unwatered wine" as a thing to be avoided, if not outright "unclean".

That sort of sets a standard for moderation to avoid drunkenness. Plus:


Scripture makes a compelling case for total abstention...

"It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else that will cause your brother to fall."

 

I would like to know exactly how I could cause someone to stumble if I were to have a beer. What does the word "stumble" mean in this context? Should we avoid having a beer if it makes someone get all upset or does it mean that we should not partake of alcohol if it would cause someone to sin? Or does it mean both.

 

I only drink wine occasionally for my stomach. But I don't like the feeling of dizziness because it conflicts with the Holy Spirit in me. So I'd much rather feel the joys of the Spirit than dizziness and inebriation.

 

Erm... are you kidding? If we're commanded not to 'upset' anyone, then we could never tell anyone about what's going to happen to them if they refuse Christ. It's about 'sin', not about 'feelings'.

 

Agreed, it's about 'sin', not about 'feelings'. To the OP, if one chooses to consume alcohol, simply do so in a manner that does not cause a person to sin. I don't consume alcohol very often, but when I do, it's not in a manner that would cause a reasobale person to sin.

 

Sorry to dredge this old topic back up... but I came across Proverbs 20:1 in my reading today.

I read this as wine (or strong drink) is intoxicating and arouses brawling and is contrary to wise living. (from the notes of my Thomas Nelson KJV SB).

 

Read the entire passage, not just a particular verse. It's a proverb, not a commmand. It's telling us that the person who allows himself to be led astray by consuming the drink is a fool. It is not saying the drink itself is a sin.

Considering that Jesus consumed wine regularly at every sabbath, and every meal, and even turned water into wine at a wedding, and considering that there are verses that praise wine, invite people to drink it with a merry heart, and that wine makes the hart of men glad, it's clear that scripture does not condemn the siple act of consuming alcohol, and, in some passages, encourages it.

 

I did read the entire passage, Johnv... I agree that it's a PROVERB... hence the book... PROVERBS. I don't see how it can get any more clear than what the text states, but I know you're not going to agree with me no matter what, you just want your liberalistic view of the scriptures to stand. Feel free, but as for me, I'll take His word literally in this instance.

Instead of just throwing out the 'read the entire passage' arguement, which absolutely does NOT hold water here, (from all the notes on the passage that I can find and what I can discern) please limit your arguements to rational thoughts and back them up with scripture.