In Moderation....

Then if you're in the company of those whose likelihood of stumbling is resonably predicated on your consuming a glass of wine, then refrain. If you're not in such company, then you're free to consume the glass of wine.

Same with anything else. For example, if you're in the presence of a person fighting with overeating, it's unwise to eat a doughnut in front of them, since it's likely to cause them to stumble. But if they're not around, feel free to have a doughnut.

Again, why a reasonable Christian cannot apply discernment in situations like these is beyond me.

 

But then again, if I have an associate that is unsaved, that has witnessed me drinking in some form and this causes them to stumble (become anti christian) for some reason... just not worth the risk.

 

If that's the way you feel, then don't drink around an unsaved person. But don't insist that all other Christian abide by your conviction on the matter.

 

If you are 25% drunk, you are not drunk. If eating 4 cheeseburgers is gluttony for you, does eating one make you 25% glutton?

 

The problem you're going to run into with this arguement, TGG, is that JohnV is going to say that his drinking is NOT a detriment to others no matter how long you argue about it.

 

What is so difficult with you folks understand that scripture permits it, and even encourages it in several verses?

ANd no, TW, the simple act of consuming alcohol is not in and of itself a detriment. If you're in a situation where it is a detriment to someone, then don't do it. If you're not in such a situation, then you're permitted to consume it.

 

Actually it's not a conviction of mine. I just don't drink. Didn't before I was saved. I understand both sides of the argument.

I do feel that abstaining from alcohol is the more mature and Christlike path in my neck of the woods. I am sure that in other places it would not be the case. The majority of people here feel it is wrong for a chritian to drink, so I would not want an unsaved person to see me purchase or consume alcohol. It may cause them to use me as an excuse. Now I realize that it would just be an excuse, but I don't want to be a stumbling block.

Not insisting, just saying that there are arguments on both sides. We are way too quick to say "I'm right, you're wrong" without thinking it through.

The OP was about moderation. How much is too much. Like I said, can my alcohol level be .07 since .08 is legaly drunk in my state. BUt what if I fell that 1.0 is drunk. Can I then go to .09? The state would consider me drunk, but I would not. Maybe my church says .05? Who decides?

 

Agree on the sleeping thing, however I do feel that driving that way would be sinful. I can also make the argument with persciption medications.

What about the priesthood of the believer? Why did God completely fobid alcohol for them when performing priestly duties? No wine when approaching God's throne. Aren't we priest? Do we not continually dwell in the presence of God?

Just thinking out loud.

 

I am well aware of this, but thanks for letting me know.

 

I understand completely.

Then by all means, refrain.

The bible is clear. It's permissible.

When you're drunk, it's too much. That level is different for different people. Again, I don't know why that's an issue. One person can eat a lot and not be a glutton. Another person can eat a little and be a glutton. But no one ever asks how much food is too much. Everyone knows when they're getting gluttonous. Likewise, everyone knows when they're getting drunk.

It's a nonissue.

 

Not even a little bit drunk?

There are studies that disagree with you on this.

 

Disagree, if it's so clear there would be no debate. I don't see anyone debating if murder is permissible

I agree with your aruments except this one. There is no way you can state that everyone knows when they are getting drunk and actually believe it. You may, but there are many who can not.

 

Oh, that arguments over spiritual issues woudl be that easy. But in reality, the debate ceneters over peoples' inablility to discern between drinking and drunkenness. But, yes, it is biblically clear:

Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding.
Jesus served wine at the Last Supper.
Jesus ate food and drank wine with sinners to the point he was accused of being a glutton and drunkard.
Scripture invites people to drink wine with a merry heart
Scripture says wine makes the heart of men glad
Scripture says having wine settles the stomach.

Anyone who claims that the Bible forbids alcohol consumption outright must ignore the aforementioned passages.

A person can lack discernment regarding drunkenness, gluttony, sloth, etc. Sure. If that's the case, then the person has bigger spiritual issues then whether then can have a drink or not.

 

Well aware of that. I am not promoting the following of the rule, but wondering why God made it? What is the underlying principle? Does that principle still apply today? I really don't have the answer to that but it is something to consider. Is it not?

 

I'm still stuck on wearing linen turbans.

 

:laugh:..........

 

You know what, WD? You're right. He did. I apologize, all I could focus on was JV's point about reading the whole section of scripture, which I did. My last post was prideful.

As I said in a post quite some time back, we're going to continue to disagree on the point as I just can't see how we can be sure that we're not causing someone to stumble when we drink in public. We can never know for certain that it's not causing damage to our unseeing eyes. The only way we can know for certain is to drink alone and even then someone is going to see us purchasing the booze, which may be a stumbling block and on top of that you've got the stigma of drinking alone working against you.

I disagree with JohnV's interpretation of Prov. 20:1 and he obviously disagrees with mine, which is absolutely fine by me. :godisgood:

 

When I wear a turban, it's linen! Actually, I follow most all of those rules! LOL.