In the flesh versus In the Spirit

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    My premise

    1. What is born of flesh is flesh - Jn. 3:6
    2. Those "in the flesh cannot please God" - Rom. 8:8
    3. "in the flesh" refers to the nature of man as he comes from the womb of flesh
    4. What is born of Spirit is spirit - Jn. 3:6


    QUESTIONS

    1. Is there any human being (other than Christ) not born "in the flesh"
    2. Can any human being "in the flesh" please God?
     
  2. Yeshua1

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    ALL are tainted by the sin of Adam, we are ALL born corrupted, sin natured, NONE able to save themselves apart from receiving the Lord Jesus , and being forgiven on the basis of His death in payment for our sins...

    NONE even seek after God in their flesh, muhj less please Him, as in order to please God, would have to be perfect in ALL our ways!
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Still can't answer the questions directly and specifically! Why? Are they difficult questions? Why won't you directly address the questions?

    This thread and OP is for direct answers to these questions. If you cannot or will not directly answer these question then why waste time and space?
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    Already answered!

    Its NO
     
  5. billwald

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    All humans now on this earth are contaminated by sin.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    Thank you!

    Now, since you admit that all mankind comes into this world "in the flesh" as to their nature and cannot please God "in the flesh" then what is the only other alternative than to be "in the flesh"?

    And how did those in Hebrews 11 please God? What was the transformation of nature that allowed them to please God?

    Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    The only other Biblical alternative to being "in the flesh" is to be "in the Spirit" as defined by Paul in Romans 8:8-9:

    Rom. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his
    .
     
  7. billwald

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    >Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    In other words, those who die a conventional death and have not been translated must have displeased God.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    No! I could have selected any name given in Hebrews 11 to prove that point. Hebrews 11:6 says without faith it is impossible to "please God" and every single person listed after verse 6 came to God by faith and lived by faith. Faith is a FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT not of "the flesh" (Gal. 5:21).
     
  9. Winman

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    Jesus came in the flesh and had the nature of the seed of Abraham, yet he pleased God. It is faith that pleases God, no where do the scriptures say a man cannot have faith, in fact, they often say he does.

    1 Jhn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    Anyone who denies Jesus came in the flesh is the spirit of antichrist.

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Jesus came in the nature of a man, the seed of Abraham. In ALL THINGS he was made like unto his brethren. He suffered being tempted. He was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin.

    Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    Men pleased God by faith, that is the theme of this chapter. Men do not have to be transformed to have faith, the scriptures show men have the ability to have faith.

    Twice the scriptures say Jesus marvelled.

    Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

    Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

    Twice the scriptures say Jesus marvelled. He marvelled at the centurion's great faith, and he marvelled at his countrymen's unbelief. Neither of these make sense if faith is a gift from God. Did Jesus forget that he gave the centurion great faith? Did Jesus forget that his fellow countrymen had not been regenerated and could not have faith?

    So, both these verses refute that faith is a gift. Men have their own faith, otherwise these scriptures would bee nonsensical.

    Enoch pleased God because he had faith. He had godly parents and had been taught about God.

    Romans 8:5-9 does say that a man "in the flesh" cannot please God, but it does not say a man is fixed in this condition. It does not say a natural man cannot be convicted and enlightened by the word of God and believe. Once he believes, he is no longer natural, but spiritual.

    Romans 8:9 actually refutes the Reformed doctrine that regeneration precedes faith, look carefully.

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    Notice that until the Holy Spirit "dwells IN you" that you do not belong to Christ. You are none of his. Now look at Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13, Acts 19:2, and Acts 2:

    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Spirit by hearing and believing the gospel. When they believed they were not spiritual, and they did not belong to Christ. They were not born of God when they believed. Only after believing did they receive the Spirit and now belonged to Christ.

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    These Ephesians received the Spirit AFTER they heard the gospel and believed it. So when they believed, they were not spiritual, they were not born of God, they did not belong to Christ. Only after believing did they receive the Spirit and were born of God.

    Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Paul's question implies that he believed a person receives the Spirit after believing. Therefore he believed a natural man without the Spirit had the ability to believe.

    Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    Peter believed a natural man could repent and believe, he told these men to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins (we are justified by faith) and AFTERWARD they would receive the Spirit. So Peter believed these men could believe as natural men without the Spirit.

    Peter went so far as to actually say "Save yourselves" which shows Peter believed men had the ABILITY to repent and believe.

    There is not one verse of scripture that supports a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe, but there is MUCH scripture that supports a natural man can both repent and believe, and once he does he receives the Spirit and is born of God. I have just showed you several such verses.
     
    #9 Winman, Jun 14, 2012
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  10. The Biblicist

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    No, he did not! You misunderstand the contextual definition of "in the flesh" as used by Paul in Romans 8:7-9. Paul is not talking about coming as a human being! Instead he is contrasting two different types of human beings "in the flesh" versus "in the Spirit." Here "in the flesh" has reference to a sinful fallen and depraved nature that comes with natural birth or that described in context by Paul in Romans 8:7-8. Christ never came into this world with that kind of "natural" depraved condition. He did not come into this world with a mindset at "enmity with God and not subject to the law of God..." however, that is the mindset that all other human beings come with when born "of the flesh" and that is precisely why they need to be "born again" but "of the Spirit."

    Moreover, the contrast that Christ makes in John 3:3-10 is a contrast between a fallen nature and a regenerated nature "that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit."
     
  11. Winman

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    Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

    God cannot be tempted.

    Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    God cannot be tempted with evil, but Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS AS WE ARE, yet without sin. How could Jesus be tempted? He inherited his flesh from his mother Mary.

    It is not our nature that condemns us, it is actually committing sin that condemns us. When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus was HUNGRY. His body wanted food. This temptation is not evil. It is only evil when we willingly choose to obey our flesh when it desires something sinful or ungodly, or something out of the will of God.

    Most folks cannot distinguish between temptation and sin, but they are not the same, the scriptures clearly show this.

    All the verses I showed you showed people who believed before they received the indwelling Holy Spirit. According to Romans 8:9, these men were natural men. No man can be spiritual until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    Whether you will admit it or not, the scriptures show a natural man, once convicted and enlightened by the word of God can repent and believe the gospel, and once he does he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    Do you deny that these verses show a man believing before he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit? Please answer this question.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    You are missing the point!

    Again,

    You misunderstand the contextual definition of "in the flesh" as used by Paul in Romans 8:7-9. Paul is not talking about coming as a human being! Instead he is contrasting two different types of human beings "in the flesh" versus "in the Spirit." Here "in the flesh" has reference to a sinful fallen and depraved nature that comes with natural birth or that described in context by Paul in Romans 8:7-8. Christ never came into this world with that kind of "natural" depraved condition. He did not come into this world with a mindset at "enmity with God and not subject to the law of God..." however, that is the mindset that all other human beings come with when born "of the flesh" and that is precisely why they need to be "born again" but "of the Spirit."

    Moreover, the contrast that Christ makes in John 3:3-10 is a contrast between a fallen nature and a regenerated nature "that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit."


     
  13. Yeshua1

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    OT Believers at death went to Abrahams Bosum, NOT directly to heaven , as messiah had NOT yet come and died, so though they were considered saved by god, and he did NOT hold sins against them, they did NOT have same kind of relationship as we do, as that required the death of the messiah and the coming of the Holy spirit!
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Abraham was regarded as the "father" of Israel and "abraham's bosom" was a metaphor to depict going where Abraham went - to heaven.

    David states clearly that when he dies, he went to "glory" and to "heaven."

    Psa. 73:24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
    25 Whom have I in heaven
    but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


    This is a hebrew parallelism. In both verses only two locations are being considered (1) upon earth where he is guided with counsel; (2) glory or heaven

    In other Psalms he speaks of his death as FLYING AWAY to heaven.

    Psa. 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

    Answer this question - Does your personal relationship with Christ even equal that relationship between David and Christ as recorded in the Psalms????
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    In Psalm 119 David considers only two possible extreme destinations - heaven and hell with not THIRD or MIDDLE destination.

    The Hebrew "sheol" was the place of the dead. The "dead" body of the saints and wicked went to upper sheol whereas the spirit of the wicked went to the "lowest" sheol. Only the "dead" went to sheol (dead body, dead spirit) but Christ denied that Abraham, Isaac or Jacob were "dead" as God is not the God of the "dead" but of the "living." Hence, David claimed that his spirit would not go "down" into sheol (only his dead body) but his spirit would "fly away" and be received into "glory.....heaven"
     
  16. Yeshua1

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    strange, as the Bible CLEARLY teaches that before Christ died and went to lift up to heaven Abraham Bosem, all of the OT believers were in Sheol, awaiting to go to heaven with messiah!

    that was the good news he proclaimed, that he had accomplished his task, and Now they could go to heaven, as the veil that blocked them was now fully openned up!
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    I know of no such scripture that teaches such a thing. Before the resurrection of Christ, Jesus told the theif "THIS DAY" he would be with him in paradise. Paradise is where the tree of life exists and that is in heaven (2 Cor. 12:1-5; Rev. 22:1-3). However, his dead body went to upper sheol but did not corrupt.

    The quotation in Ephesians about "leading captivity captive" is taken from the book of Judges when the enemies were defeated and led captive. It also refers to the Roman custom of a conqueroring General who would have enemies being led through the streets of Rome as his troops gave gifts to the people celebrating his victory over the enemies of Rome.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Jun 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2012
  18. Yeshua1

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    Paul made it very clear that when jesus went down into that abode, he raised up and brought the PT believers captive there back with him into heaven!
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    For example? Scripture please? Is that what the scripture clearly and explicitly states OR is that YOUR INTERPETATION?
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    No, for the messiah Himself stated that only He was in heaven, and he came down from heaven, and he raised others with him back to heaven!
     

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