Incompatibility

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Jan 23, 2016.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    I believe there is a significant advantage for one to know and understanding the difference in God’s separate dispensations concerning His people Israel, and His children the Church (all believers in Christ, which separates the people and children), because it is through both eras that He worked to bring man into fellowship with Himself and His Son. The first dispensation was Israel’s “schoolmaster,” to bring them “unto Christ”; the present dispensation finds them “no longer under a schoolmaster,” and are joined with the Gentile world resulting in being “all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:24-26).

    The importance of differentiating between Israel and the Church is to reveal the final status God has planned for each (Israel and the Church). Though Bible doctrine related to this distinction in the coming eschatological period is "nonessential" (teachings not related to receiving salvation), it is nonetheless advantageous (as all nonessential doctrine is) for spiritual growth.

    It is my belief that those who remain among the nation of Israel will be saved during the end times (Rom 11:26) and that they (non-Messianic Jews) have been and will remain distinct from the Church, even in the eternal state.
    NC



    Incompatibility

    To the church today, which would seem to be a corruption of Judaism and Christianity (Judeo-Christian#!?--NC) the question must be asked, and answered: What is Christianity?

    In the first place, Judaism was a religion, a systematic trial of man; as Moses said, at the time of the giving of the Law, “God is come to prove you” (Ex 20:20). Christianity affirms this trial over, the sentence of the law given—“none righteousness, no, not one”; the Cross, the judgment of the world more full still; “the carnal mind” as enmity against God. Christianity thus begins in the soul as a true repentance, an acceptance of God’s righteous judgment against him, the end of all hope of betterment for him, save in a new life and nature from God: he must be born again.

    The characteristic of Judaism was an unrent veil: man at a distance from God, who dwelt is the thick darkness (Ex 20:21; 1King 8:12) unapproachable (Lev 21:17), unknown. Christianity declares the veil rent in love and righteousness—rent by the Cross of Christ, and a way of access thus to God, revealed in the Lord Jesus. “By a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh” (Heb 10:20).

    Judaism, with its many constantly repeated offerings could not make the “conscience perfect” (Heb 9:9). The law was efficacious to condemn (Gal 3:10—NC), but not to justify; and its forgiveness, needing again and again to be renewed, spoke only of the “forbearance of God” (Rom 3:25), gave no place of assured rest and acceptance with Him. “Who, for fear of death, were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb 2:15). In Christ, by one offering are perfected forever those who are sanctified; the worshiper once purged has no more conscience of sin; and the righteousness of God justifies the ungodly, who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Judaism left, therefore, the people of God confounded with the world—necessarily, as giving no full assurance to any. No cry of “Abba, Father,” therefore was known—no spirit of son-ship. Christianity separates its justified ones from the world, to which they no more belong and have been crucified to (Gal 6:14)—and separates them to God, to whom they belong and in whom they are. “For your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3).

    Judaism, for worldly men, had a “worldly sanctuary” and “carnal ordinances” (Heb 9:1, 10)—things suited to act upon men in nature, in the flesh. The worship of Christianity is heavenly, spiritual, in the intelligence of faith, and needing it; the worship of those brought nigh.

    Judaism had its separate order of priests, who alone had to do with sacred things. Priest and people were distinct; and while none could really draw nigh, the former had an outward, official nearness which the latter had not. In Christianity, people and priests are one and the same; there is real, not merely relative nearness to God.

    In Judaism there was God’s house, but of necessity the house and the people were quite separate; in Christianity they are identified; and this is the first way in which the Church was announced, i.e., as a building: “Upon this rock I will build My church.” Peter describes it as a building of living stones—a spiritual house (1Pet 2:5), and Paul as the temple of God in which the Spirit of God dwells (1Cor 3:16).

    - F W Grant
     
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  2. Deacon

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    Your early use of the word dispensation, your distinctly differentiating Israel and the church, and your pointing out eschatological peculiarities, leads me to identify your approach to interpreting scripture as dispensational.
    If I'm correct it is an approach I share.

    There are about 50 places in the NT where the word Israel is used distinctive from Israel, the place. Its use almost always distinguishes the national, political, ethnic kind of people of Israel, distinct from the Church.

    The distinction between Israel and the church is prominent reiterated is by Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:32, “Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God—” (NIV).

    Compatibility
    Yet there are several examples of OT language describing Israel that are applied to the Church in NT.
    You might call these shared spiritual experiences, e.g.2 Corinthians 6:16-18; 1 Peter 2:9–10.

    Rob
     
    #2 Deacon, Jan 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
  3. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Hi Rob - Thanks for the nice reply which well expresses our concurrence concerning dispesationalism. Without this distinction the non-Messianic nation of Israel can be mistaken for the Church and vise versa. If there were no difference then the Law would still be the way to God, instead of Christ.

    I believe 2Cor 6:16 is addressing believers in Christ because it is mentioned about believers not only being a people of God (v 16) but also a Father and believers in Christ as sons and daughters (v 17). This cannot refer to those who believe in God only and not Christ (the generality of Israel), which prevents them from being His children and He their Father; just a people of God, and God is their God, not their Father.

    The generality of Israel always believed in God, and I believe the promise of God to give them a new covenant in the end times (Ezek/Jerm prophecies - Millennium) will be to the orthodox Jews who believe in god but not Christ--until they see Him (Jhn 14:1; 20:29).

    God's blessings to you Family, and I hope I didn't rattle on too much!
     
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  4. SovereignGrace

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    To both you Brothers...

    Do you see God dealing with Israel and the church as two separate entities? I ask for clarification. Thanks in advance.
     
  5. Deacon

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    I don't know if this will answer your question or not.

    Dispensationalists are like Baptists, where two or three are gathered, there are three or four opinions.

    There are some general areas of agreement.
    • There is a difference between Israel and the church. The difference is most pronounced when dealing with eschatology - the way God fulfills his promises to his people.
    • The bible teaches only one way of salvation since the fall.
    • Those of faith in all dispensations have more in common than they have differences.
    Rob
     
  6. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Ezek 36:27; Jer 31:31, 32. Yes. These prophecies are after Jesus returns and refers only to the lineage (actual posterior blood descendants of those unbelieving in Christ) of Israel. That's what Jesus eluded to in John 20:29. "Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Israel (non-Messianic) inherits the New Earth; the Church (believing Jews and Gentiles) inherits the New Heaven.

    Israel (the remaining nation, which will be many) will be saved after seeing Christ, per God's promise to Abraham by the above prophecies.

    Scripture is not clear concerning Israel's (those who do not believe in Christ now) blessings so inference is often the instrument of deduction. Whatever one believes concerning this it does not affect the possession of salvation. It is nonessential doctrine concerning receiving salvation, but can be essential for spiritual growth.
     
  7. SovereignGrace

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    Well, being staunchly amill, I'll bow out. I was just seeking clarification. Merci beaucop.
     
  8. TCassidy

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    Being staunchly Historic Chilliast I too will bow out. :)
     
  9. Deacon

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    Thanks brothers!
    We need a "Thank you" button.

    Rob
     
  10. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Sorry if my reply seemed excessively involved. I suppose I was attempting to be instructional as much as possible too fast.
     
  11. JohnDBaptiste

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    A dispensation list
    1. innocence (man was neither saved nor lost)
    2. lost
    3. lost / atoned (initial covenants and expanded Torah / Law)
    4. saved / lost
    † tree of life and tree of knowledge of good and evil present in Eden this also proves innocent is not saved as in 'all babies go to heaven...' myth!
    Physical Israel was called out from from the Gentiles in dispensation #3 to usher the Truth into the world in two forms
    1. the written word of God the Bible
    2. the Truth Personified the Christ
    God's plan is to deal with evil in both the spirit realm (where sin originated) and the physical realm by his sacrifice on the cross.

    Colossians 1:20 (AV)
    20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    We ask why did God create us? Why did God create the physical realm? I would ask why did God create anything to exist other than himself? The grief he would have spared himself! But I digress... The answer to the first two questions is Colossians 1:20.

    Attention is deservedly paid to the make up of Jesus Christ (100% God / 100% human). 1 John 3:2 says we will be like him (meaning resurrected humans) but we are already like him in that we are hybrids of spirit and flesh. The angels (and God the Father and God the Spirit) are spirit only. Like the line in Star Trek 2009 Sarek to son Spock "You will always be a child of two worlds."

    I agree with the OP in one sense Israel is the people of God and that all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are children of God. But in another sense this is not exactly accurate.

    Isaiah 63:16 (AV)
    16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

    Isaiah 64:8 (AV)
    8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

    Father / children...

    The Father being mentioned here is actually Jesus. The Old Testament / Jewish people makes little mention of the Father of Jesus, but rather of the Father of Creation (which is Jesus alone preincarnate).

    RED ALERT!
    This is not modalism or Sabellianism or Oneness Pentecostal or Apostolic doctrine.
    This is Trinitarian theology.
    Secure from RED ALERT!


    Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
    24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    Colossians 1:16 (AV)
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    John 1:3 (AV)
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    All these point to God the Word who was with God (John 1:1):
    But he (God the Word) acted alone in creation. He is the Father of Creation (visible and invisible). Notice Isaiah 44:24 calls him YHVH (LORD). Notice also it calls him redeemer as does Isaiah 63:16. The Hebrew term is Goel (kinsman redeemer) meaning he has to be kin to those he redeems. Neither God the Father or the Holy Spirit are our kinsmen... only God the Word became a man (John 1:1 / John 1:14). So God the Father is not our redeemer. God the Word / Jesus is.

    Now that the importance of the physical realm is established, the spiritual has been the goal in God's plan for man from the beginning... right down to obeying God rather than satisfying physical curiosity / craving for the forbidden fruit... to the difference between Cain and Abel's sacrifices... on down to modern times.

    Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    Genesis 29:35 defines the name Judah (Jew) as "praise"

    Galatians 3:28 (AV)
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 6:16 (AV)
    16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    Spirit Israel is what God intended physical Israel to become.

    Deuteronomy 10:16 (AV)
    16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

    The Church does not replace physical Israel. The Church is Spirit Israel (first for the Jew then for the Gentile).
     
  12. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Hi JDB - Thanks for your input. For myself though, I believe that the doctrines pertaining to Israel and the Church are presently too obscure to confirm many issues concerning them.
    God's blessings to your Family!
     

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