Indicative or subjunctive

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by mojoala, Jul 27, 2006.

  1. mojoala

    mojoala
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    Assuming that the translation of Scripture from the Greek was done with the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit and in the proper context.

    "Shall be"
    "Shalt be"
    and
    "Wiil be"

    or not the same as "ARE"

    “And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16: 15 – 16, NKJV)

    is very much different from

    “And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized ARE saved; but he who does not believe ARE condemned” (Mark 16: 15 – 16, NKJV)

    Are = present indicative
    Is = present indicative
    be = present subjunctive

    I found this word subjunctive intriguing.

    sub·junc·tive
    Of, relating to, or being a mood of a verb used in some languages for contingent or hypothetical action, action viewed subjectively, or grammatically subordinate statements.

    So one could conclude that

    “And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16: 15 – 16, NKJV)

    implies

    “And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized is contingently saved(or hypothetically saved); but he who does not believe is contingently condemned (or hypothetically condemned) (Mark 16: 15 – 16, NKJV)

    So what are these contingencies?

    or one more definition is in order.

    will
    1. Used to indicate simple futurity: They will appear later.
    2. Used to indicate likelihood or certainty: You will regret this.
    3. Used to indicate willingness: Will you help me with this package?
    4. Used to indicate requirement or command: You will report to me afterward.
    5. Used to indicate intention: I will too if I feel like it.
    6. Used to indicate customary or habitual action: People will talk.
    7. Used to indicate capacity or ability: This metal will not crack under heavy pressure.
    8. Used to indicate probability or expectation: That will be the messenger ringing.
    So when it says "will be saved" it really means that God is expressing a forecast(futurity) of one being saved, and of a likelihood or certainty ofbeing saved and willingness of wanting you to be saved and intention of you being saved and you have the capacity or ability to be saved and a probability or expectation of being saved along with some which has some contingencies applied to it.

    So is Salvation guaranteed with absolution? NO!

    Your Salvation is hypothetical and is contingent.

    So I ask what are these contingencies?

    Read the New Testament and you will find almost a hundred of these contingencies.
     
  2. mojoala

    mojoala
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    P.S. all grammer information gotten from Dictionary.com
     
  3. mman

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    What are some of the contingencies? The word "if" sure is used frequently in the New Testament. Grammatically speaking, “if” is identified as a conditional particle. That is, it mentions conditions or circumstances upon which certain consequences follow. Here are just a sampling of some conditional statements using the word "if":

    IF we hold fast the word, we will be saved (1 Corinthians 15:2).
    IF we faint not, we shall reap in due season (Galatians 6:9).
    IF we continue in the faith, we will be unreprovable before Him (Colossians 1:22-23).
    IF we endure, we shall reign with Him (2 Timothy 2:12).
    IF we add the Christian virtues, we shall never stumble (2 Peter 1:10).
    IF we walk in the light, Jesus’s blood keeps on cleaning us(1 John 1:7).

    What if you don't hold fast? You won't be saved
    What if you do faint? You won't reap
    What if you don't continue in the faith?
    What if you don't endure? You will be reproved
    What if you don't add the Christian virtues? Will will stumble
    What if you stop walking in the light? The blood of Jesus stop cleaning us

    If this is not logical conclusion, then the statements have NO meaning in the first place.

    Rom 13:11 - For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.
     
  4. mojoala

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    Based on the above statement, if we hold fast, we are contingently saved.
    THAT IS RIGHT, YOU DON'T HAVE A PRAYER OF BEING SAVED. Holding fast is one of the many contingencies.


    Do you see why the OSAS is false doctrine or the Assuredness of Salvation is a false doctrine.
     
  5. NateT

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    At least one problem is that 16:16 doesn't use the subjunctive. It uses a future passive indicative for both words (saved & damned). In Greek, the Indicative is used as an expression of fact from the point of view of the speaker/author.

    Second, salvation is often spoken of as present and future in the NT. The old cliche, of "I am saved, I'm being saved, and I will be saved" is definitely displayed in the NT.

    Third, the people that are referenced here are the ones they are to preach to. The preaching comes in the future as does the salvation.

    Fourth, 16.15-16 is debated as being authentic, so it is wise to not base a doctrine on something that appears only there.
     
    #5 NateT, Jul 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2006
  6. mojoala

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    I seen this at some Catholic Forums, and it usually comes in the form of this:

    I'm already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8)
    but I am also being saved (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12),
    and I have the hope that I'll will be saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).
    Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phi 2:12),
    with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).

     
  7. NateT

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    I don't have hope that I'll be saved. I have knowledge that I will. The Bible tells us that if God justified us through Christ, how much more will He save us from the wrath to come.
     
  8. mojoala

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    Assuming that the translation of Scripture from the Greek was done with the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit and in the proper context.

    With that being said. We as christians are not required to know the Greek. It have to make the safe assumption that those that translated from the Greek used the proper English in the proper Context.

    So what ever the Greek form implies is not pertinent.

    Unless of course one wants to say that the only real way to read scripture and understand it as God intended is to learn Greek and read it in the original Koine Greek. Which is not a plausible reality. So we rely on those that did the translation to use the proper english grammar rules when applying from the Greek.

    Do you read or write Greek? I don't. And I really don't trust Greek lexicons, since the person writing it is fallible and prone to personal interpretation instead of reality.
     
  9. mojoala

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    How can you be so sure when Paul whom was chosen by Jesus himself did not have the same assertion.

    Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in
    hope of the glory of God.
    Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience,
    hope:
    Rom 5:5 And
    hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in
    hope,
    Rom 8:24 For we are saved by
    hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    Rom 8:25 But if we
    hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in
    hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
    Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have
    hope.
    Rom 15:13 Now the God of
    hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
    1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in
    hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
    1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things,
    hopeth all things, endureth all things.
    1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith,
    hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
    1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have
    hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    2Co 1:7 And our
    hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
    2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such
    hope, we use great plainness of speech:
    2Co 8:5 And this they did, not as we
    hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.
    2Co 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having
    hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the
    hope of righteousness by faith.
    Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the
    hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no
    hope, and without God in the world:
    Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one
    hope of your calling;
    Phi 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my
    hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
    Phi 2:23 Him therefore I
    hope to send presently, so soon as I shall see how it will go with me.
    Col 1:5 For the
    hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
    Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the
    hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the
    hope of glory:
    1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of
    hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
    1Th 2:19 For what is our
    hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no
    hope.
    1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the
    hope of salvation.
    2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good
    hope through grace,
    1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our
    hope;
    Tit 1:2 In
    hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed
    hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the
    hope of eternal life.
    Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the
    hope firm unto the end.
    Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of
    hope unto the end:
    Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the
    hope set before us:
    Heb 6:19 Which
    hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
    Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better
    hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
    Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things
    hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
     
  10. J. Jump

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    It would help in the understanding of these conditional passages if proper context was applied. Eternal salvation is not the context of the conditional passages, but eternal salvation is not based on a condition. Eternal salvation is a gift. When received the matter is closed. It becomes a thing of the past and the subject if never brought up again as far as God is concerned.

    Eternal salvation is not a hope. Eternal salvation is a guarantee. Keep the contexts clear and you can keep the message clear. If you combine or confuse contexts, you are going to combine and confuse messages.
     
  11. NateT

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    In no way do I want to advocate using only the Greek and Hebrew in Bible reading. However, to say that it isn't pertinent, is wrong. When trying to discover the meaning of something, all the evidence should come into play. In this case, some of the evidence is what the author said and how he said it. Can we trust the NKJ, KJV, NIV etc? Absolutely, but can we get more info by looking at the orignals? Absolutely.

    Additionally, you want to come in and make an argument based on grammar of a sentence. So let's look at that grammar in as much detail as possible. Which no doubt includes the greek.

    So, in looking at this passage, it is important to note that the author was treating their salvation as a future fact, not a condition nor probability.

    Further, I find it interesting that you reject the use of Greek lexicons, but not Dictionary.com. It, too, was written by fallible humans. They might not have considered a case of the subjunctive tense.

    At best, if you want to disprove conditional security, this is not the verse to use.
    As to saying I don't have hope of future salvation, you should read closer. I didn't say I didn't have hope. I have lots of hope. But in terms of future salvation, I have assurance.
     
  12. mojoala

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    What assurance.

    Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full
    assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much
    assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

    Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full
    assurance of hope unto the end:

    Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full
    assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
     
    #12 mojoala, Jul 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2006
  13. NateT

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    Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    Again, the "shall be" phrases are not conditional here, except on the condition that Christ died for us. Since I am justified by his blood, I will be saved from the wrath to come. The conditions are on God and Jesus, and not me.
     
  14. J. Jump

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    Actually if you keep this passage in its original intended context you can see that not ALL Christians can claim this. Part of context is audience, and this epistle is written to faithful, obedient, overcoming believers, not believers in general.

    The wrath to come is not speaking of the wrath of the everlasting lake of fire, but the wrath that unfaithful, disobedient and non-overcoming Christians will experience during the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

    Eternal salvation is secure and there is absolutely nothing that one can do to lose it. It's like pulling the trigger on a gun, to borrow an illustration from a friend. Once you pull the trigger it's a done deal. You can wish you hadn't, but that bullet is headed for its target no matter what.

    However the future salvation that is spoken of is a salvation that Christians can participate in the coming kingdom of Christ. This salvation is dependant on faith and works (book of James). It is something that can be possessed and then lost. It is not a guarantee. It is a hope. It may or may not happen.

    However we can have assurance that we are going to be saved at this future date if we are doing the things that the Bible says we are to do in order to be saved at this date.
     
  15. NateT

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    I'm not convinced that there is a category of "unfaithful, disobedient Christian" Perhaps it's a matter of understanding what is exactly meant by that phrase. But to discuss that would be changing the subject of this thread.
     
  16. J. Jump

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    Unfortunately there are. Broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there be that find it, but narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it.

    That's not talking about eternal salvation. That was written to believers.

    What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his soul. That was written to believers. There will be some believers that gain what this world has to offer (that's disobedience because we are to be in the world, but not of the world) and they will forfeit their soul.

    It has everything to do with this topic, because ALL Christians try to lay claim to ALL the promises, but some of the promises are conditional. And if you are an unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christian then you can not claim those promises.

    Ephesians 2:10 is a subjunctive verb when it says we SHOULD do good works. That means there are some Christians that aren't going to.

    Read the parable of the virgins, talents, pounds, wedding feast.

    The warnings of unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcoming Christians is spread throughout the entire NT.
     
  17. NateT

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    This is written, at least in Mark 8, to believers and unbelievers. In the immediate context, Jesus turns and addresses the crowd who is with his disciples after the transfiguration. There is no promise there that the crowd is composed of 100% believers. Jesus is explaining what it means to be his follower and then offers 4 reasons to choose him. The whole setting is started by him saying "If anyone wants to come after me." Do you take that to mean "If anyone wants to be really like me, he must do this_____, but if you just want to wind up in heaven, don't worry about it" ?
     
  18. NateT

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    I'll try to look at those parables that you are pointing to, but as I'm working right now, it might take some time.

    You are correct to point out that "that we might walk in them" is definitely subjunctive. However, it is a bit of an overstep to say simply because it is subjunctive, it must be merely a probability. Often that is used in this case. I heard once (and can't find the source right now) that only about 70% of subjunctives in the NT express uncertainty in the action.

    Daniel Wallace's grammar, when discussing a construction like Eph 2.10, states
    That, is, Paul is addressing the issue of "Why were these good works created?" It is possible that he is saying there is uncertainty as to whether this action will be done or not, but it is also just as possible that he is not focused on that. The context in Eph 2 is why were we raised up with Christ, why were we saved? It is not addressing the continual walk of the Christian, but instead discussing justification.
     
  19. NateT

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    I looked at the other parables (except the one about the pounds -- where's that at) and I can see where you get your position. However, I don't see anything that clearly shows that those who are cast out are believers, as opposed to non-believers.
     

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