Individual Election

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Dec 9, 2004.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Can anyone show scriptural proof of election being individual.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    I Peter 1:2 & Acts 16:31. The Lord knows all who will become His elect.
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ray;
    I agree He does but then He also knows every creature on the planet. he is our creator. What I want to know is where the word says that election is individually seperate from anyone else
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  4. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    ILUVLIGHT,

    You might have to go to a Calvinist to dramatize this so as to update your spiritual understanding. As of today I have not seen any definitive verses to this effect.
     
  5. Monergist

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    We can let a famous Calvinist, Paul of Tarsus, dramatize it for us...

     
  6. Monergist

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    ...and another, Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah...

     
  7. Monergist

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    ...and Paul again speaking of Rufus...

     
  8. Gershom

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    That's all great and well, but are these verses speaking in terms of salvation?
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    Both in Acts 9:5 and Acts 22:8 it was the Lord’s brilliant coming to Saul that caught his attention. You gentlemen claim that the Holy Spirit regenerates a sinner before they can repent and have faith. In this setting God was on the scene in His unusual power and brilliance, and yet we find Saul asking what this was all about. Here was demonstrated the convicting and convincing power of God’s Presence.

    The Bible teaches that he was saved when He yielded to God by saying, ‘Lord, what will you have me do.’ This is when the submission came to the confused man named, Saul, later to become the Apostle Paul.

    We believe and know that Saul only knew of this calling when he said, as noted above, ‘Lord what will . . . ’ After Saul’s tour in Damascus he knows that the Son has been revealed to him [Galatians 1:16]and he goes directly to Arabia for three years, perhaps to meditate on the messages that he would later write in the epistles. A time of reflection and meditation in the Presence of the Lord God.

    God knew in eternity past that certain men including Jeremiah and prophetesses would come along and proclaim the Lord’s truth. Thus, ‘Saul was separated unto God from his mother’s womb.’ [Galatians 1:15] God's knowledge was before conception.

    Both clergy and laity have first believed and trusted in the Lord, before He has used us in being His witnesses and truth bearers.

    The Rock of Ages has always known that we would believe, follow Him, and preach in His Name. The Apostle Paul was no exception to His Divine omniscience

    Saul’s conversion to Jesus is more spectacular and magnificent an event than most of us experienced when we bowed to His sovereignty.

    But then some of the brethren have had other deeply spiritual experiences subsequent to their first trusting in Jesus Christ as only Savior. But, that is another Topic.
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Gershom;
    Very good question, I'd like to know where these came from. With out seeing them in context they can't even be considered.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ray;
    Very good post A men.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
  12. Southern

    Southern
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    Mike,
    John 6:37 shows that God has given (election) a people (individuals)to the Son:

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    In Christ...
     
  13. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Southern;
    No. It says "all that the father giveth me" This isn't about election at all. but about all that the Father giveth. No Where does it say all the elect are given to Christ. This could be Jews only for all I know. It is in the book of John and John was writting to the Jews.
    No where in scripture that I know of, does it say all the elect is given to Christ. If I'm wrong show me.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Nowhere in Scripture does it say that all the elect are not given to Christ. Show me a place where it does.

    Can you not see the fallacy of that kind of reasoning? When you study Scripture, we must realize that concepts do not always go by the same name. Very often the Scriptures uses synonyms.

    What John 6 says is that 1) you cannot come to Christ unless the Father gives it to you to come (vv. 44, 6465); and 2) all that the Father gives will come (v. 37). In this we see two distinct groups that are mutually exclusive. Those whom the Father gives that will certainly come; and the rest. Some have tried to explain this away by saying that it was just Jews. That is on par, exegetically, with saying that Rom 1:18-25 only applies to the Romans. It simply won't stand up. Jesus is talking about why people come and why they don't. He even looks at some and says, "You can't come."

    The giving/drawing of the Father are terms of election or choosing.
     
  15. GeneMBridges

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    No. It says "all that the father giveth me" This isn't about election at all. but about all that the Father giveth. No Where does it say all the elect are given to Christ. This could be Jews only for all I know. It is in the book of John and John was writting to the Jews.
    No where in scripture that I know of, does it say all the elect is given to Christ. If I'm wrong show me.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]So "all" no longer means "all" to you after all, huh? Interesting, because everywhere else, you say that world means everybody everywhere and "any" means the same thing. So why exactly do "world" and "any" always mean all person everywhere and now "all" is restricted?

    John's gospel is NOT written exclusively to Jews.
    No, John himself is associated with the Ephesian church, and this gospel is believed to have been first received there. The Ephesian church was composed of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. We know this from Acts, and we know this from Paul's letter.

    Those that are given are the same ones that are raised up on the last day and the same ones that believe, the same ones that come to Jesus because they are drawn. If "all that are given" are the Jews, then that means all Jews come to Jesus, are drawn, and believe, and are raised up at the last day. However, at the end of the passage, almost all of His hearers turn away from Him. This passage is very clearly about individual election.
    Who is raised up on the last day? Christians. Who is drawn and come? Christians Who believe? Christians Why? Because they are given to Christ by the Father and drawn by Him. Sounds like a description of saved people to me.

    Romans 9 is about individual election. Lydia is an example of individual election in Acts. Paul is an example. Rufus is an example. Each and every Christian is an example.
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    I do not see any simularity between the words, "Given", and "Elect". Just how could these two very different words mean the same thing? I don't believe they do and that includudes English definitions. Yet you seem to be saying they are the same thing. Can you show scripture that says that when we are elected we are also given in the same instance.
    May God Bless you;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Genembridges;
    There you go again creating a scenario that doesn't exist.
    This of course is your opinion, but it's your opinion because of your particular view. So prove you're opinion.
    How can you claim that any of these are elected individually when there isn't anything written about there election before the foundation of the world. I mean Calvinism does believe that we are chosen before the foundation of the world. so. Show me an individual election of anyone before the foundation of the world. Lot's of people are chosen for various things but election to Salvation is not recorded for any in particular person after creation. If I'm wrong please show me.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  18. Southern

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    Mike,

    Call it "giving" (john 6:37), "predestinating" (Rom. 8:29), "appointed" (Acts 13:48)whatever. The point of the passage is that there is a "people" given to the Son. These are the individuals who believe and eventually will be raised up on the last day. These "individuals" come because of their being given to the Son. This same idea we see in Rom. 8:29 where it says those He predestinated, he also called. Acts 13:48 also which says that all those appointed to eternal life are the ones who believed. This is individual election.

    In Christ
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Southern;
    I realize you may believe that predestination is unalterable. There is a problem with this and that is you have God creating something that is resistant even to Him. But you deny that we can resist the grace of God because of His Sovereignty. Don't you see that this predestination or appointment being unalterable is contradictory to your believe in God's Sovereignty. If, that is. You believe that God's Grace is irresistible.
    The truth is that God can and does Change His mind I believe I showed you this before in Genesis
    Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
    Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
    Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
    Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
    God Changed His mind here and decided to wipe out all man then changed it again and spared Noah and His family but He still destroyed the rest of man. Noah and His family was all that was left. There can be nothing that is unchangeable and as long as there is nothing impossible with God.
    The word "Those" is plural. There is nothing singularly individual about this. Were there some who didn't believe? Probably; but the ones who believed were appointed to eternal life. They fulfilled there destiny because they believed. Those who didn't believe, did not fulfill there's. You're assuming that they were appointed to eternal life before they believe and that part is unscriptural This would mean they were saved before they were saved. Again I realize that you believe we are regenerated first in order to believe but this again is unscriptural. Regeneration before faith does not exist in scripture.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  20. Southern

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    Mike,
    There is no "break" in this passage or change in God's mind found in Rom. 8:29. All those who are predestined will be glorified. If you think otherwise, please explain from this text how you insert a break or change of God's plan.

    As for Acts 13:48, As many as "had been" appointed to eternal life believed. All did not believe because all had not been "appointed" to eternal life.

    In both of these verses "individuals" come as a result of God's predestinating hand. Are you denying that it is "individuals" who come to the Son (vs. 37) and "individuals" who believed in Acts 13:48? You cannot seperate the "elect" (rom. 8:33) from the "individuals" who make up the elect.
     

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