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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Deacon, Dec 17, 2010.
Were OT believers indwelt with the holy Spirit?
Some were, but most were not. Prophets were. But the Holy Ghost could depart from a person as in the case of king Saul.
1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
The apostles did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit at first. The Spirit was with them, but not "in" them.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
There is a difference between dwelling "with you" and being "in you".
Eleven of the apostles were believers, but the Holy Spirit was not "in" them. If the apostles had the indwelling Holy Spirit, then why did Jesus tell them he was sending the Comforter, that he may "abide with you for ever"? So obviously the Holy Spirit was not abiding with them for ever at this time.
In verse 17 Jesus identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit, and says he dwelleth "with you" and shall be "in you".
In John 7 it shows that believers did not yet have the Holy Spirit. Yet there were many who believed on Jesus at this time shown in scripture.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
These believers did not have the Holy Spirit yet, as the Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus was glorified.
That the apostles did not have the Holy Spirit is shown when Jesus breathed on them after he had risen from the dead.
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Were the apostles believers before this time? Yes. If they already had the Holy Spirit, then why did Jesus have to breathe on them and tell them to receive the Holy Ghost?
So, can a person believe without the indwelling Spirit?
Yes. Here are a few verses...
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? (Isa 63:11; KJB)
Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst. (Neh 9:20; KJB)
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. (Ps. 51.11; KJB)
Nice work. As you point out, some were chosen for this wonderful act of God; but not until Pentecost did it come to God's own people, and some proselytes were included. According to His p;urpose were some chosen.
From the beginning it is His purpose that we today in the Body of Christ all have this indwelling.
good post Bob
Key difference is not the "INDWELLING" of the holy Spirit for Jesus' bride today v OT saints, but the "PERMANENT" indwelling of the holy Spirit.
Oh, how thankful I am to be part of the Bride!
Standard stuff here so far...
My question stemmed from Jesus' response to Nicodemus in
“Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony."
How does being born of the Spirit relate to the indwelling of the Spirit?
Why would Jesus expect Nicodemus to know about being born of the Spirit?
Can one be un-born of the Spirit?
John 3:6, That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
To be born of the Spirit is to be indwelt of the Spirit.
The Gospel was preached to the OT saints as well as unto us (Heb. 4:2), and those under the OT who were saved were saved by grace through faith, just as we (Rom 4:16), and were born of the Spirit, and indwelt just as we.
The real difference is in the manifestation of the Spirit.
I am here to learn.
Please keep your definitions and explanations concise for my wrinkled old brain. Can you provide Bible references for your explanations.
Please define a few terms:
Born of the Spirit
Indwelling of the Spirit
Unborn of the Spirit
Manifestation of the Spirit
And any new terms introduced in the posts to this interesting thread.
Hey Bob, I’m just exploring some thoughts and looking for some answers too.
Indwelling - God’s abiding presence in believers
John’s “new birth” [John 3] parallels Jeremiah’s “heart circumcision” [Jeremiah 4:4; Rom 2:29; Col 2:11–13] and concerns regeneration, being made anew in Christ’s image.
***Indwelling and regeneration are distinct but related works of the Spirit.
Romans 8:9–11 (ESV)
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Galatians 4:28–29 (ESV)
Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
Paul called Isaac one of the “children of promise” and said he was “born according to the Spirit”.
His descendants were the “people of God” [Hebrews 4:9].
Curiously a notoriously difficult passage, Hebrews 6, mentions those that “shared in the Holy Spirit” yet have fallen away.
Hebrews 6:4–7 (ESV)
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
Thank you for those definitions and Biblical references.
Yes, Biblical references about the Holy Spirit are worthy of study.
Technically, since Christ had not been crucified yet, it was possible for an Old Testament character to be filled with the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist, who was born pre-Crucifixion, was filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mother's womb.
Could you please expand on this?
Thank you Rob, I've been looking for that, and it's been right there under my nose all this time.
I believe OT Saints were indwelt as we.
And I am so thankful to be in the Body of the Bridegroom.
Would not believe so. But for those of the Pentecostal period, not indwelled with the Spirit, but had actually tasted of the Power of the Holy Ghost, and what will come to those of the Covenant, it is possible for them (without the indwelling of the Spirit) to fall away. Paul tells us this as he wrote to the Hebrews.
Hebrews 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
"those under the OT who were saved were saved by grace through faith". They were eventually saved through faith, but not before it was time.
indwelling was not available during the time that John the Baptist lived.
Through Faith was not to be their lot for quite some time. Their sins were covered by the blood sacrifices of animals. This was a temporary thing until the everlasting blood was shed.
You don't know what you're talking about. Righteousness was NEVER through the law:
3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision:
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision; that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them;
12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.
13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
....if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law. Gal 3:21