Infant Baptism

Pauline,

I believe the original sin is what created the sinful nature. Before man had the knowledge of good and evil man could not sin. Doing something wrong and sinning are two totally different things. Childern are innocent. Children are unaware of right or wrong, they just react.

Now that we know right from wrong, and we choose to do wrong, we commit sin. We should know better, but we don't.

It is the spiritual upbringing that is important. This is what shapes us. It is the heart which is important.

Michael,

I can only speak to water baptism. Spiritual baptism is God's domain. Only God knows when and how this is done. I don't have an opinion about things that belong to God. I thought I mentioned that earlier. If I didn't, I apologize.

 

As long as people are so arrogant to think of Baptism as an act a person does they will never truly understand Baptism.

 

As long as people believe that water can forgive sins, they will never understand baptism either.

You see it goes both ways.

To assume that children were included in the entire family being baptized is an assumption. It is an implication, not a Biblical fact.

 

Michael:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I've never seen God baptizing with water. I have seen, though, the results of His baptizing with the Holy Spirit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When John the Baptist in obedience to Jesus baptized Him, God showed He was doing the work. The Holy Spirit really came upon Him. The Holy Spirit could have come down upon Jesus separate from Baptism if it was only to signify that He was the Messiah. In Jesus' Baptism, God stated that Jesus was truly His Son. The Holy Spirit was upon Him. That is what happens when we are baptized, we become His sons and daughters. This is being born again of water and Spirit. Jesus showed this by example. We are to follow Him.

God Bless

 

EXACTLY, Disciple!

We are to be obedient!!!

 

Tuor, who in the world thinks water forgives sins?

Michael, there is no difference. Water is just water. The whole event is just "getting wet" without the Spirit being involved.

Baptism is, as God teaches us in the Scripture, a washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. The child who receives Baptism is made a child of God through the powerful Word of God and the Spirit of God working through that Word, connected with the water, comprehended in God's command to baptize. Baptism is the promise of God Himself, attached to the water by the Holy Spirit, and applied to the child. It is a pure gift.

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

The washing and regeneration verse is a dry verse, Baptism is no where to be found in that verse.
Sir Ed, One of your Catholic friends called infants unable to understand Baptism, yet you on a different thread said that John the Baptist understood within his mothers womb. Which one is it?
In Christ alone, not water,
Brian

 

Michael,

You can call infant baptism a baptism, but it is not that person's obedience to God. We are not saved by actions of other people. We are saved or lost due to our own actions. I don't believe that a baby is being obedient when it is baptized.

In other words, I believe that sprinkling a baby means absolutely nothing. It is when a person decides for themselves that they are to be baptized is when it means something.

So, to answer your question, sure get the baby wet. Just don't make the mistake of telling that person they have been baptized.

The better question for CoC is, should they use loud speakers during the service? CoC is concerned about the service, not the vehicle used to get to the service.

Sir Ed,

Do you believe that a baby who is baptized will automatically go to Heaven?

Brian,

It is the Holy Spirit within us that is calling us to be baptized.

I would say, Jesus alone, which can be seen by actions,saves.

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

Briguy, you say:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The washing and regeneration verse is a dry verse, Baptism is no where to be found in that verse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jesus' Baptism was not a dry baptism. The Holy Spirit came upon Him. God said Jesus is His son. That is what happens to us. We become God's children. Jesus also taught the Apostles how to baptize using water, and saying the correct words. Scripture teaches there is one Lord, one faith, one Baptism. I want the one Baptism that He had. Why would Jesus' baptism be different than ours?

God Bless

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]

 

Brian, I believe you are confusing me with CatholicConvert.

Tuor said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You can call infant baptism a baptism, but it is not that person's obedience to God. We are not saved by actions of other people. We are saved or lost due to our own actions. I don't believe that a baby is being obedient when it is baptized. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with all that. The question is, where does Scripture tell us that we must be obedient to God before being Baptized or even before recieving his Grace in any manner?

As for your question, the answer to your question as to a Baptized baby is yes.

 

Sir Ed,

I'll answer your question when I get home and have time to do some research.

Follow up question, do you believe that once a person is baptized, they will authomatically go to heaven.

Baptism=ticket to heaven

 

Tuor, I can't believe you asked me that!

The answer to that question is a clear no. In fact, the Bible is so clear on that one that I can't think of any denomination that believes differently.

 

Tuor:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>do you believe that once a person is baptized, they will automatically go to heaven. Baptism=ticket to heaven <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would like to respond from a Catholic view. A baby or small child would go straight to heaven cleansed of the sin of Adam he was born into. At baptism he is made a child of God, by the Holy Spirit.

An adult has free will and after recieving sanctifying grace in Baptism can chose to reject the grace at any time. He can separate himself from God by sinning. He can lose the gift of eternal life that God gave him. He can also have ongoing conversion by confessing his sins and is restored to the state of sanctifying grace.

As far as the child who has been baptized as a baby, as soon as he reaches an age where he understands right from wrong he can sin, and needs to learn to repent, and confess his sins, or he too can end up losing his gift of salvation. That is why Jesus taught parables and taught us how to live. It is not automatic. We don't automatically do God's will after we are born again, as I usually hear here. We need to be taught and be guided in how to follow Jesus. That is what the parables are about. How to live with Christ in us, so that we don't lose our salvation. The child as he grows who ends up baptized, but not believing in Jesus Christ and all He did and commanded, would not have sanctifying grace in his soul. This is sad, but happens. Many people are baptized, but have not persevered to the end in their faith, including Catholics.

Scripture says our salvation is with difficulty. It is simple, but not easy. I don't know of any faith who baptizes babies that would believe in once saved, always saved. Baptism is not a ticket to heaven. Because of freewill we can reject God's gift. He doesn't take back anything. It is us who can throw our salvation away. God however does know who is going to persevere to the end in their faith.

God Bless

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]

 

Sir Ed,

You are correct, as far as I can see, there is nothing in paticular about the order in which things must be done, just that they are.

Taken as a whole, the examples of the New Testament are people who chose to become a Christian after the age of accountablility. If someone were to become a Christian then, someone would need to believe first.

If you will go back to what I said about what I believe original sin is, then you will see that I don't believe that original sin comes into play until the age of accountability. Therefore any baptism of a child is not needed.

I also get from scripture that our relationship with God is a personal one. Our decision to follow God is a personal one.

I guess to closest thing in scripture I can see is Jesus' statement in Mark 16:16

Mark 16
16
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

You will notice that the believe is mentioned first and the baptized is mentioned second. You will notice that Jesus doesn't say at the end that he who hasn't been baptized nor disvelied shall be condemned. I would say that this is because it is understood that someone who didn't believe wouldn't be baptized.


Disciple2001,

The Catholic view and the Lutheran view are identical in this.

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

You are correct. Most of the examples of the New Testament are people who chose to become a Christian as adults, other than those where entire families were Baptized. As for the "age of accountablility," I've yet to find a Biblical basis for this concept.

As for your comment that "If someone were to become a Christian then, someone would need to believe first" it just begs the question. If you believe you are a Christian and if you are a Christian you believe.

You are also correct that our relationship with God is a personal one. Our decision to follow God is a personal one.

I really believe that the two understandings of Baptism come from where the emphasis is placed on the teachings of the Bible. For the Baptist, the emphasis is placed on verses where men come to the Lord and are then Baptized. For those who believe in the "catholic" understanding the emphasis is placed on Scripture that identifies what happens during Baptism; ie: the Holy Spirit descending on them.

The only thing I can add is that other churches don't disagree with Baptism after belief. The Holy Spirit and God's Grace come to us in a variety of ways: Baptism, Communion, reading the Scripture, hearing a great preacher, etc.