Infant Baptism

Infant baptism achieves nothing as the baptised one is still a sinner and under condemnation. It is a reflection of it's parents misunderstanding. Being born of Christian parents is not a sure salvation because Eli lost his children. To include before inclusion is real is unreal and therefore not in truth. There is no value in it for anyone.
For Calvin to assume that it is a continuation of circumcision is false because we still belong in the Abrahamic Covenant. There is nothing in scripture to tell us there was a change in the law except that circumcision is no longer, if it ever was, necessary for inclusion in the Kingdom of God. Faith is the sign of inclusion, nothing else is.
I know a woman at the moment who has been told by her vicar that she cannot get baptised because she was christened as a child. The best she can hope for is a confirmation. Pretty sad state of affairs I'd say. Being baptised as a sinner but unable to get baptised as a saint. That is what infant baptism results in.

padredurand.

And precious little scripture. He made an assumption did he not?

That infant baptism is attested to by tradition is not in question.

Wes, Outwest.

This is not right is it? All people are under the wrath of God until they are brought to salvation. 'Jacob I loved Esau I hated' means that not all children are loved.
All people from the moment of conception break the law. None are born with the love of God needed to be innocent. Ignorance of the law is a mitigating circumstance but the child is guilty of sin nevertheless.

johnp.

 

This is not right is it? All people are under the wrath of God until they are brought to salvation. 'Jacob I loved Esau I hated' means that not all children are loved.
All people from the moment of conception break the law. None are born with the love of God needed to be innocent. Ignorance of the law is a mitigating circumstance but the child is guilty of sin nevertheless.

johnp.</font>[/QUOTE]If you are calling the human sin nature sin, then you'd be wrong. Sin exists, but human do not have to commit acts of sin, it is the acts of sin, the deeds that condemn us. One does not become a murderer until he murders someone. One does not become an adulterer until the act of adultery is committed, even though if you think it in your heart, God sees it as the act, it is not a sin deed until acted upon. Thus it is not a chargeable deed.

There is going to be a judgment of deeds

(not by what they think). The judgment of what one thinks comes in Rev 20:15

Infants are not responsible for sin because they have not been taught by "the law" (parental) that what they do is sin. They are innocent of the law because they don't know the law, Law is not inborn, it is learned.

All deeds, both good and bad are judged as if by fire. The good deeds come through the fire in the manner of Gold, Silver, and precious gems. Gold and silver are purified in fire, precious gems are not effected by fire. Bad deeds are consumed by the fire in the manner that wood, hay, and stubble, are consumed by fire. However the one doing the deeds, is "spared" as if through fire. For the one doing bad deeds, it is devastation of having your worldly goods consumed by fire. For the one doing good deeds, there is still the "treasure" that you can lay at the feet of Jesus.

An infant has NO deeds to be tested! The infant is completely dependent upon the parent. Being "pure in heart" so to speak, even though the human nature is susceptable to sinning, the infant that dies has nothing chargeable against it, so it is passed from death unto life.

 

Hello Wes, Outwest.

Not so. Why do babies die? It's the wages of sin regardless of actual deeds.
Actual deeds increase the severity of judgement and actual failure to obey the law is also a deed. Love the Lord your God is commanded of all and failure here brings wrath. Knowledge of the law is unneseccary for judgement. Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... This is without exception.

Not so. 1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

That would be lust. Maybe I am not understanding you. It is not the deeds that are the real problem. The deeds of sinners are just symptoms of a fallen nature. The heart of man is condemned before any act takes place.

Of course but the deed originates in the heart. Are you saying that if I set off to rob a bank and I die before I get there I do not face judgement for the thought? The heart is judged before the deed. The deed proceeds from the heart.

I don't really understand this.

Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... If children are not responsible then why do they die? The wages of sin is death therefore they must be considered guilty of sin. The fact that they have not known the law mitigates but does not absolve them. If they were considered innocent then they would not die and we would know they are all saved. Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. David was aware of it. This is why we should not baptise infants.

If this is a reference to 1 Cor 3:12 then Paul is talking about Christians. If it is not would you let me know where it comes from?

You have no children then?

Not without the grace of God. Since faith is required then the child must have faith to move from death to life before it dies, the same for the rest of us.

johnp.

 

Hello padredurand.

Yes a child must be held accountable for things beyond their ability to comprehend because they die.
Rom 4:15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. But this is applicable only to those in Christ. It does not mean if you do not hear the law you are not condemned. Nor can it mean that comprehension is taken into account because, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14.
Comprehension can only come with regeneration. If comprehension is used as a measure of ability, and those without the ability are not condemned, no one goes to Hell. Universalism, no?
Rom 5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account (Impute?) when there is no law.
Sin is not taken into account by sinners. God always takes sin into account otherwise it would not be known as sin. How can there be sin if there is no law? It is man that does not comprehend a thing to be sin unless the law says to him, "You shall not." It become alive then and rebellion springs openly into view. (The 'imputation' might need discussing.)

Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

I would not say that David's child went to Hell. The scripture is clear that the children of believers go to be with the Lord except in exceptional circumstances. Those circumstances are willed by the Lord.
As for the 'age of reason', that is an assumption based on peoples idea of fair. To believe all children are saved until they reach a certain age is a man made illusion based on our idea of fair. There is no scriptural warrant for it and we are not to impose our idea of fair onto God. He makes the rules.

I do not really know if you are addressing my points padredurand because you have not named who you are talking to.
Your last paragraph mentions David after the death of his child. This is sometimes used by those that believe all children are saved but I see it another way. David could just have meant the grave without reference to the afterlife as such. But just in case you think I am a barbarian I do believe all children are saved, this is an assumption I make and I make sure all know that it is an assumption based on what I think fair, but they are saved by grace and have faith. John the Baptist had faith, "As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy." Luke 1:44. No comprehension was needed by baby John was it? Saved before birth.

As for pastoring the bereaved. I think it a fearful thing to lie to comfort. Is this not a place where trust in God comes in. There just is not enough scripture to comfort the non-Christian over the death of a child but there is for the Christian, "They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever." Eze 37:25.

johnp.

 

Not so. Why do babies die? It's the wages of sin regardless of actual deeds.</font>[/QUOTE]It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment. You cannot blame the death of infants on sin! Jesus atoned for sin, so that man need not die because of sin. The wage of sin may be death, but Jesus paid that wage with his divine life, and he did it ONCE, for all sins in all times. Sin is not a factor in man's salvation, because Jesus atoned for all sins.

Yes, Infants die, and the reasons they do may be the related to the consequences of mankind’s sin. But individually speaking, the sin of the infant did not cause the infant's death. There was no chargeable sin! Besides, sin is not a factor in salvation!

Then how do you account for the scriptures

and,

So, you think that God destroys the lives of infants even though they have no charge against them?

Not so. 1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.</font>[/QUOTE]The sin is hate not murder! The hate has taken place the murder has not!

 

part 2

That would be lust. Maybe I am not understanding you. It is not the deeds that are the real problem. The deeds of sinners are just symptoms of a fallen nature. The heart of man is condemned before any act takes place.</font>[/QUOTE]The heart of man is what is redeemed by believing in Jesus Christ. It is by believing, that we are “born again”. The heart that has faith in God, is saved, the heart that does not believe is cast into the lake of fire. The deeds that we do, both good and bad, are tested as if by fire… but the one doing the deeds is not likewise tested. The test for eternal life is the faith condition of the spirit.

Of course but the deed originates in the heart. Are you saying that if I set off to rob a bank and I die before I get there I do not face judgment for the thought? The heart is judged before the deed. The deed proceeds from the heart.</font>[/QUOTE]Why would you even ‘think’ about robbing a bank if your faith is in God? To do so shows that you lack faith! So you are not condemned by your thoughts you are condemned by your lack of faith.

I don't really understand this.</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps you do not understand the atonement that Jesus provided for sin. The atonement is payment in full of the indebtedness brought by sin which is death. Jesus made that payment for ALL sins in ALL times, and He did it once for ALL. Now please notice that atonement does not eliminate SIN, it pays the penalty for sin. With the penalty that is actually on our heads because we sin, having been PAID in full, we do not have to pay that penalty which Jesus paid for us, “ONCE, for ALL”. We have been ransomed! With that penalty paid for ALL sins, even the unbelievers do not face death due to sin. What unbelievers face is FINAL judgment because their names are not found in the book of life Revelation 20:15. They are cast into the lake of fire, the second death, which is the death of spirit! Evil spirit such as Satan, and his demons, those who became evil, and humans who refused to believe in God’s gift to man, His only Son, are the spirits that are cast into the lake of fire! You will also notice that Jesus says in John 3:18 that those who believe in Him are not judged! Yes, their deeds are judged, but they the people are not judged. They pass from death, into everlasting life.

Here’s what God gave good ole Jeremiah to tell us about what He plans to do for man.

Then He gave us His only begotten Son to atone for our sins so that he could forget them.

 

Part 3

Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law... If children are not responsible then why do they die? The wages of sin is death therefore they must be considered guilty of sin. The fact that they have not known the law mitigates but does not absolve them. If they were considered innocent then they would not die and we would know they are all saved. Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. David was aware of it. This is why we should not baptise infants.</font>[/QUOTE]You do know that there are two deaths don’t you?

Yes I do, and I was privileged to be unemployed when my son was born and for the next 13 months too! I had bonding time with my son that most men can only wish for. I studied my son, and I watched every move he made. I only corrected him to keep him from being hurt. I read the scriptures to him daily. It was not until he was crawling that his sin nature manifested itself in disobedience to his parents. His disobedience was met with instant correction. Even so, he did not stop “testing” his boundaries. That testing he was doing is a built in, instinctive thing observable in all primates and all mammalians. Therefore, I counted that not as “mans sin nature” but more as survival of the species. It was not until his teen years that he became deliberately sinful, disobeying his parents. It was not until his teen years that conviction of the Holy Spirit brought him to his knees.

Not without the grace of God. Since faith is required then the child must have faith to move from death to life before it dies, the same for the rest of us</font>[/QUOTE]Then I suppose that Jeremiah, John, Paul, James and Peter are wrong. About the age of “accountability”, or age of majority, or whatever it’s called when the child becomes responsible for its own conduct. When does the faith of the parents stop covering the child?

 

Hello Wes, Outwest.

Too much in one go causes the waters to become muddy.

The scripture you quote is to do with Christian teachers who are building up the Church. If their doctrine is wrong they will lose any reward coming to those who have the scriptures right. That is all it means.

Who else takes life but God? "...Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." Job 1:21

You say they have no charge against them the bible says, "Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

The actual murder has not taken place but the root is the same as the tree. 1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

I share your belief but you have used the wrong scripture to prove it. Also I believe we are sinners and no good comes from us but God disregards our sin because Jesus died for us. Is that what you are saying?
If you are then there must come a time when we receive the benefits of Christ's sacrifice. When we receive the benefits, regeneration and the forgiveness of sins, then we get baptised.

You do not sin?

There is the shadow of death and the reality. The shadow is physical the reality is spiritual. (Bet that is not what you meant).
The reality is that spiritual death that all are conceived in, the shadow is what we must live towards.

I agree. Faith from first to last.

I am still the main carer for my son. I had five years off to bring him up while my wife went to work. Great ain't it? Now he is at full time school I work part time. As you say, it is a great priveledge.

I don't believe those gentlemen you mention have ever said anything about the age of accountability. If they have let me see the scriptures. I believe the 'age of accountability' has been arrived at by men who try to make God look good and fair.
Look, you believe we are saved by faith as I do. We can't be too far apart. Let's try and focus and be more specific. We are not at war with each other but trying to understand and share what we have. Let us stick to scripture. Where do these people talk about a certain 'age'?
Many hold the belief that there is an age where we become responsible for our actions but I do not see it.

The faith of the parent never covers the child. Jesus promised us our children so our children are covered by Him. Forever. There is no 'age of accountability'. Children are subject to the wrath of God in the same way the grown ups are.
If God has an age where He holds the person responsible then He has not told us.

johnp.

 

Greetings padredurand.

Your first paragraph:
I believe that God saves those He chooses. It is not dependent on the ability of the person. John was saved in the womb. Luke 1:44.

I don't believe that God is fair as we know fair. In our sight, "Jacob I loved Esau I hated." Is not fair. What I believe is that we must accept what God says without judgement. If we use our judgement, say at Romans 9, then we judge God and that is beyond us.
If we use our judgement in the case of Pharaoh then we can take liberties. We can find a work around and in the end deny the way He treated this man or we can say that is not fair. Both ways are judgements against God. The best way I have found is to accept it.
When He says that He riased up Pharaoh for the sole purpose of destroying him and making His glory known then what can I say but, "As you see fit Lord." Not that He needs my permission.

He saves all kinds of people but not all people.

I have heard of this but I know nothing about it. I looked it up in the dictionary. Only boys I see.

Sorry Barbarians my error! No offence meant to you lot.

I am a Calvinist in an Arminianish Church. We have committed ourselves to each other. Doctrine does not interfer with love. It does however liven things up!
There are bound to be differences amongst us. It is how we overcome those differences that counts.

johnp.

 

"Free from the Law--Oh Happy Condition"

Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses--still are not. The Jews could not keep the Law anyway--only Jesus could--and He did. The Law was given as a "schoolmaster" to show how man cannot be righteous of himself--he still can not.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, bond nor free, male nor female--all are the same--in Christ.

Baptism is a picture--of death, burial, and resurrection. How this has any connection with circumcision is beyond my comprehension.

If we would translate the word "Baptize" correctly to "immerse", the proper candidate and mode would become obvious. Infants are unaware of what immersion signifies. To say that "original sin" must be washed away, is to say that what Jesus did at Golgotha was insufficient. Jesus paid it all--"It is finished".

Selah,

Bro. James

 

I don't think that you are digressing really padredurand. The baptism/cicumcision link is not helped by man's need for ceremonies and outward signs.
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. Rom 4:11.
I think the passage above negates the link made between baptism and circumcision.
(So then, he is the father of all who believe and have been baptised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.)
That is the way that should read?

Tradition.
Ps 16:6 The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance.
My wife earns our daily bread while I stay at home bringing up the kids! It's a great life.
That a good resource you gave, Judaism 101. Bar Mitzvah is a recent invention but; "Under Jewish law the father retains responsibility for the sins of the son. Extra-biblical? I believe it to be biblical! Eli was held responsible for the loss of his sons, "For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons made themselves contemptible, and he failed to restrain them. Isa 3:12
Judaism 101 have missed John the Baptist from their list of prophets!

Best news I've ever heard.

johnp.

 

I'm a Biblical Calvinists and DO NOT BAPTIZE INFANTS!

 

padredurand wrote,

What other man would you suggest I identify with? We are all flawed. Outside of Jesus, who is 100% correct on 100% of doctrine? Remember Paul rebuking Peter? Martin Luther certainly wasn't 100% correct and neither was Calvin. We need to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11)and examine teachings in light of Scripture.

 

Scooter,
I agree with your post!
Welcome to the board partner, I haven't been here that long myself.

In Christ