Featured Infants in Heaven

That would help if you would answer the question, for yourself that is!

Glad I never had a gun put to my head. Guess that excuse is as good as any!

Is this a long windy "beating around the bush" way of saying you have a natural tendency to sin.

Good question!

Thanks for the correction!

Adam sinned and the entire world became corrupt! Why did the entire world became corrupt just because Adam sinned. Can you answer that question.

Why O Why would man corrupt himself?

Why is man born with fleshly lusts?

You admit that God made Eve very good but say she had "worldly lusts" indicating you believe that fleshly lusts are evil and Eve was then evil. I believe that is what is called "contradicting yourself"!

Scripture does not indicate that Eve lusted after the fruit of the tree and Adam certainly did not lust after the fruit yet we are told that sin entered the world through Adam.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

That is debatable!

You are rewriting Scripture. Nothing is said in the story of Adam and Eve about Lust. "Shame" is implied after Adam sinned!

You really need to define your understanding of what "lust" means before you say man was designed with "fleshly lusts". God says that God made man "Very Good"!

Jesus overcame "temptation"!

Winman, you apparently do not understand the incarnation. God did not "become flesh". He took on Himself the nature of man! But you must be careful in using the word "flesh" since sometimes it is used to indicate the sinful nature of man. Of course you don't believe in the sinful nature of man even though you will insist that man will not resist the temptation to sin.

 

Which particular sin do you want to know about?

I can tell you about one, I remember drinking and getting drunk as a teenager, and I know why I did it, to fit in with all my friends. I did it because of peer pressure. I knew it was wrong. I knew it was against the law, I was underage. I knew my Dad will KILL me if he found out. And I knew that God did not want me to drink or get drunk, but I did it anyway, because at the moment I wanted to be loved by my friends more than my family or God.

No one put a gun to my head, I KNEW what I was doing.

My younger brother was robbed at gunpoint, he was made to lay on the ground with a pistol pushed to the back of his head. He said he was just waiting for a big flash. Not fun.

Yes and no. Your body simply wants to please itself no matter what, but your mind knows better. It is exactly how Paul describes himself in Romans 7;

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Paul is not speaking from the perspective of a Spirit filled born again person here, no Christian is "sold under sin". He also said he was captive to the law of sin in verse 24. No Christian is captive to the law of sin (Rom 8:2).

Paul in his mind loved the law of God and approved of it. He desired to do it, but his flesh warred against his mind and brought him into the captivity of the law of sin, which is, the wages of sin is DEATH. The first moment you sin you are sold under sin, and the wages of that sin is death.

So Paul naturally wanted to obey God and please him, but his flesh warred against his mind.

Then why didn't you answer it?

I think you are being sarcastic here.

The scripture I showed did not say one word about the whole world becoming corrupt because of Adam. Your Calvinist indoctrination is making you read falsehood into scripture again. Let's read that verse again.

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

See how it says "all flesh" had corrupted "his way"? Each man corrupted himself. There is not one word here about Adam.

See, if you pay careful attention to scripture that it clears up false teachings and false doctrine! :thumbs:

Again, you have to ask the man. I gave you one example of my own experience. I could tell you many more, but I would rather not.

But one thing I can tell you is that I was never forced to sin.

Because otherwise you might not eat or sleep and you would die. Our fleshly lusts are good as long as we reign them in to obey God's laws. It is no sin to have sexual desire as long as it is confined within marriage as God designed. When you take that natural desire outside of marriage you sin.

No, they are only evil when you go outside God's limits. You can have sex all you want as long as it is with your wife. Go outside marriage and then you sin.

Nonsense, read for yourself;

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

What does the word "desired" mean?

This verse does not say Adam's sin passed on all men, it says DEATH passed on all men, "for that all have sinned". Death passed on all men because all men have personally sinned as Adam did.

You can debate anything, doesn't mean you are right.

I have already showed you that Eve "desired" to be wise. That is lust.

And you need to study, the same Greek word translated lust in many NT verses is translated as "desire" when speaking of Jesus.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Look up "desire" and "desired" here in Strong's, you will find it is the same Greek word translated "lusts" in Jhn 8:44;

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The same Greek word ἐπιθυμία (epithymia) is used in both these verses. Don't take my word for it, look it up yourself.

Why was it not a sin for Jesus to lust? Because this was a good lust, he wanted to have passover with the disciples. Nothing sinful about that. But in John 8:44 these men desired or lusted to kill Jesus. Very bad.

Yes.

There you have it folks! This is exactly what I have been saying, people are denying that Jesus came in the flesh.

1 Jhn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

He who has eyes, let him see.

 

Winman
You are a devious person but you should not use that to corrupt what I say. Also you are not nearly as clever as you think you are. I did not deny the incarnation and your insistence that I did is totally false.

Please note what I said in my quote above. I am enlarging the text in case you have poor eyesight.

In Jesus Christ there are two natures, the divine nature and the human nature. To insist that God actually became a human is a total misrepresentation of the incarnation and was dismissed long ago as a heresy!

 

Actually, you did.

Jesus did not just take on man's nature, he also took on the same flesh and blood as man.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Do you know what "the same" means?

This is why Jesus could be tempted at all. God the Father cannot be tempted (Jam 1:13). God is spirit. Jesus inherited his flesh from his mother Mary and was tempted in all points like as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15)

Yes, Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham, not Adam as many falsely teach. And as you know, Abraham was born after the so-called "fall".

But Jesus also took on "the same" flesh as us, and he felt the tug and pull, the weakness of our flesh (Heb 4:15).

I agree Jesus is both God and man. I do not understand this, but I believe it.

But Jesus had to defeat Satan as a man, read carefully.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

God in heaven cannot die. Jesus had to fully become man, he had to live under the law without sin, and die on the cross and rise again to defeat Satan.

You ought to be very careful that you do not deny that Jesus came in the flesh. The scriptures warn that this teaching is the spirit of antichrist.

 

Winman

You prove once again that you are not as clever as you think.

Do you really think anyone on this Forum is stupid enough to say that Jesus Christ did not have flesh and blood. That is another heresy dismissed long ago.

Educate yourself Winman. The Chalcedon Creed was written to eliminate the confusion that some had about the nature of the Incarnation.

 

You are the one who said this;

Now you are changing your tune.

It is also obvious from this statement that you think "flesh" means "sinful nature" SOMETIMES. Sometimes???

If you read a version like the NIV I can understand that.

KJB- Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

NIV- Rom 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.fn For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Here, the King James Bible says "flesh", while the NIV says "sinful nature". So I can understand if you read the NIV you could be convinced that the flesh means sinful nature.

However, the NIV contradicts itself, because in 1 John 4:2 it translates this same Greek word (sarx) as flesh.

NIV- 1 Jhn 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

The King James Bible translates "sarx" as the word "flesh" in both Romans 7:18 and 1 John 4:2. The NIV inconsistently translates "sarx" as "sinful nature" in Romans 7:18 when speaking of men, but then translates it "flesh" in 1 Jhn 4:2 when speaking of Jesus.

So maybe you have a messed up version of scripture? :laugh:

Get a good King James Bible and it will straighten you all out. :thumbsup:

And folks say the MVs do not affect doctrine. Right.

 

I am changing nothing Winman. It seems to me that you are saying that God became, or was changed into, a Human. For example:

If that is what you are saying it is utter heresy. Otherwise I am not sure what you are trying to say except lie about the Doctrines of Election and Sovereign Grace..

And your point is what? If you read my posts you would know that I do not use the NIV!

 

Yes, God became a human being. He had flesh and bones, he could bleed. He had to eat and sleep. He could feel pain and sadness, joy and love...

He was just like us in every way, that is why he can feel compassion for us. And it is not heresy whatsoever, it is what the Bible teaches.

I don't know what version you use, but you said that sometimes flesh is understood to mean sin nature. That is what caused me to wonder if you might use the NIV.

 

Here is John MacArthur himself saying that Jesus became a human being;

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/80-210

This is basic Christianity.

You don't get it, to redeem man, God had to become a man and defeat Satan as a man.

 

It appears from the above that you are denying the divine nature of Jesus Christ. That is the heresy of Ebionism as I said before.

I doubt that MacArthur is denying the divine nature of Jesus Christ but if he is he is as heretical as you are.

I get it. If you deny the divine nature of Jesus Christ you are a heretic. Scripture teaches both the divine nature and the human nature of Jesus Christ. That is basic Christianity.

The Apostle Paul writes as follows of the divine nature of Jesus Christ:

Colossians 2:8, 9 KJV
8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

The Apostle Paul writes as follows of the human nature of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 2:6-8, KJV
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The Chalcedon Creed is the best expression of this truth that man has been able to derive.

 

Yeah, yeah, I get it, everybody is a heretic except you.

Is this the only argument they teach you guys at Reformed churches? The Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses come up with better arguments than you guys. All you guys do is call everybody a liar or Pelagian. Lame.

And no, I do not deny Jesus is God. But he put off his glory and became a man. If he had appeared in his glory everybody would have dropped dead.

You still don't get it, Jesus had to defeat Satan as a man to redeem man.

And as much as I hate to admit it, I agree with John MacArthur on this one. Don't let that go to your head, I think Calvinism is false doctrine and he is absolutely a Calvinist.

 

It is impossible to tell what you believe about the incarnation. You appear to be totally confused about the divinity of Jesus Christ. You keep saying he became a man. God did not become a man. Did you even read the Scripture I posted that shows both the deity and the humanity of Jesus Christ? Just for a little while try not to be overcome with bitterness, Winman. For your edification if that is possible I post it again.

The Apostle Paul writes as follows of the divine nature of Jesus Christ:

Colossians 2:8, 9 KJV
8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

The Apostle Paul writes as follows of the human nature of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 2:6-8, KJV
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The Chalcedon Creed is the best expression of this truth that man has been able to derive.

 

Is the following heretical?

It appears to me that, man (Adam) was created as the conduit> (Rom 5:14) by which the Son of God, the Christ, foreordained before the foundation of the world,> (1 Peter 1:20) could come into the world to die the death> (Heb 2:6,7,9) that would be assigned the first man Adam,.(Gen 2:17 YLT) for the purpose of God. >(Heb 2:14)

For this to take place would the Son of God, the Christ actually die. Die in the very context of Gen 2:17 in the context of Romans 6:23.
And if the Son of God, the Christ, the Son of man, is actually dead in the context of the wages of sin, and for death to be defeated and to be able to destroy him who had the power of death that is the devil would that one who is as dead as dead can be have to be raised from the dead? Would his soul have to be raised from Hades in flesh incorruptible?

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. Acts 17:2,3