Innoncent Party

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Salty

    Salty
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    There is a discussion going on about divorce and those in ministry.

    I had brought up the "innoncent party"

    There could be varations of this from one party being totally in the dark to where both parties are both at fault - but one is more guilty than the other.

    So, is there such a thing as an innoncent party in a divorce?
     
  2. Yeshua1

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    Would say that the partner of an unbeliever who chooses to forsake and leave due to them being a christian now would fit the bill!
     
  3. JonC

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    I think there could be – in most cases probably not.



    Our culture is very individualistic - if one or both are not satisfied with the marriage (reason is not relevant) that has become acceptable grounds for divorce (if one or both parties no longer derive “happiness” from the arrangement, it can be terminated). Traditionally marriage was something greater than the individual, but something seems to have changed in our contemporary understanding.
     
  4. Baptist Believer

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    I have been told many times by so-called spiritual leaders that there is no such thing as an innocent party in a divorce.

    In one sense, this is true since all of humankind has been afflicted with a sin nature and has indulged that nature as soon as it was possible to know right from wrong. However, there can certainly be individuals who are innocent of doing (or not doing) things that cause the demise of a marriage.

    There are numerous examples of people being faithful and loving husbands and wives, yet they are rejected by their spouse for a variety of reasons. In many cases, it really doesn’t have much to do with the rejected spouse but has to do with emotional/spiritual problems of the unfaithful spouse.

    When I have put forth that understanding, I have had many Christians protest that if you simply patiently love your spouse, they will not leave the relationship. That sounds nice, but if that’s true, then no one would reject God, Judas would not have betrayed Jesus, and many Christian marriages would still be intact.

    Unfortunately, it takes two people to make a marriage work, but only one person to destroy it.

    So yes, I certainly believe there can be an innocent party.
     
  5. Amy.G

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    Excellent post!

    Matthew 19:8
    Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.


    Men were leaving their wives for any reason whatsoever thousands of years ago and they're still doing it today. Mine left after 33 yrs. I guess it took him that long to figure he didn't want me. So yes, there are innocents.
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    many husbands make fools of themselves in this regard, look at singer ray Boltz, who after 33 years and 3 kids, "found out" he was gay and divorced his wife!
     
  7. Salty

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    (note: edited quote in order to conform to L.E.F.T.)

    So would you consider Mrs Boltz to be an innoncent party?
     
  8. JohnnyReb

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    You cannot control another adult. In today's divorce happy society I think a innocent party is very likely in some situations. Some people know not any aspect of loyalty and skip out on responsibilities including their marriage. It's very possible many are innocent parties who unknowingly marry a deceptive person. In this case how can a person be responcible for the actions of another adult person who leaves their marriage for more money or another person?
     
  9. Salty

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    So very true
     
  10. saturneptune

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    I have never been through a divorce, so only speak by observation of others. Yes, I do believe there is more often than not an innocent party. Maybe not completely faultless, but one of the two sticks out as the prime mover of the problems.

    Another point I would like to bring up is, what right do we have to ban someone from an occupation or ministry for the rest of their lives when they have either repented or were the innocent party because of the way Joe Blow interprets a Bible verse about qualifications of pastors an deacons?
     
  11. JohnnyReb

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    We don't have a right. Christ commands us to forgive our brothers for their trespasses so that we can be forgiven for our own. Banning for life doesn't sound like forgiveness to me. It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. The sick can get better and become healthy again. Banning someone for life sounds like a bunch of humans trying to play God and need to come down off their high horse.

    Of course the qualifications for deacons ect is quite clear in Timothy. But I don't recall failure being a life long banishment. Besides Paul says it is better for a man to NOT be married. A deacon or pastor who is single would be more focused on The Lord according to Paul. Paul even warns that those who get married will face many troubles in this life. Boy did he tell the truth! So a failed marriage could be a blessing for a deacon or pastor. After some time and re establishing order to his life he may return to his post more focused and dedicated to The Lord than ever!
     
    #11 JohnnyReb, Sep 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2013
  12. j_barner2000

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    OK here is a salient question.... I am called to be and served as pastor for 10 years. My wife had a major life changing event which resulted in losing much weight. She began changing the way she dressed and noticed that men noticed her. She decided to have an affair and subsequently decided to divorce me. I did all I could to try to win her heart back. ( for about a year.) I was asked by law enforcement to leave the county and stay out. ( small town where her boyfriend is well known home town boy and has influential friends) I finally convinced her to try to reconcile and she spent 2 months here with me. She went home to " move here" but shortly thereafter I received divorce papers in the mail and was informed she decided to make a completely new life with her boyfriend. Now my question is this... does this disqualify me from serving in pulpit ministry? In Pastoral ministry? Did God remove His call because of my wifes choice to leave me for another man?
     
    #12 j_barner2000, Sep 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2013
  13. Baptist Believer

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    If things are as yu say they are here, no. You are not disqualified by God for pulpit ministry. You may be disqualified by Christians who don't know any better, but it's up to God to help you find a place of service.

    However, you would need to spend some time outside of "professional" ministry to heal and recover from such a devastating loss.
     
  14. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    I truly hesitate to mention it, because I know the subject of Charles, Andy, and Anna Stanley starts fights in some places. It think the dissolution of the marriage of Charles and Anna proves there are always guilty parties. One partner can be far more egregious in his/her behavior than the other, but the fact is, there is always a "trigger," some habit, event, attitude, demeanor or behavior that causes that reaction.

    Charles chose his church and ministry over his responsibility to Anna as his wife. Many men have made that same error, and while I've seen the reconciliation of Charles and Andy, I've never seen Charles make any comment as to being at fault, or seeking Anna's forgiveness. Perhaps he has and I've missed it. But while no one can know the content and process of the years of counseling that the couple went through, I can't help but wonder if Anna simply wanted Charles to walk away, and if so, I think that to be totally unreasonable.

    I watched that ministry from afar during the lengthy separation. I saw Charles withdraw from much of what he had been doing, so I think -- though obviously I cannot know -- that he was trying to be the husband he should have been. Perhaps he didn't try hard enough. But Anna, it appears to me, refused to budge. Nonetheless, there was probably more that Charles could have done, and should have done, to remain married to Anna. It was his choice not to do those things, even though I think it likely nothing would have been sufficient short of not ministering at all.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. JohnnyReb

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  16. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Usually I agree with you Johnny, but not this time. Paul does not endorse celibacy or non-marriage among leaders and teachers.

    1 Timothy, NASB
    2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
    3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
    4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
    5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God ?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. [Emphasis added]

    Titus 1
    5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
    6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. [Emphasis added]

    If Paul believed men of God should not be married, why did he write these things from the perspective of married, not single, church leaders? Please don't cop out by saying, "Well, marriage was not required, just expected," because that also would defeat your own argument that he advised toward non-marriage.
     
  17. j_barner2000

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    I have been out of the ministry for over a year except to fill the pulpit at my parents church when there is a need.

    I met with the local association missionary this morning to discuss the matter and he asked me to allow him to add me to the pulpit supply list. I am comfortable with that, but still not sure I am ready to seek a pastorate. If God leads me to a congregation who wants me as their pastor, then I will have to seek His perfect will, when that happens. I have chosen not to seek such a position, but will prayerfully consider it if and when it presents itself.
     
  18. righteousdude2

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    Probably Not...

    ....like the adage says....it takes to wrongs to make a right!

    In my case, my ex was secretly cheating, and I only found out when she left me and moved in with another man within a week. Since that fateful day in 1976, she has had numerous failed marriages and many, many relationships, including calling me, during my present marriage of 33 years and asking me to remarry her.

    And while her actions may look as though she was bad, and I was the "Innocent party!" The truth is, I still was at fault for the marriage not working out, as I consumed myself in the church and several part time job to make ends meet, leaving little time for the two of us!

    Plus, I was very picky, and judgmental, always criticizing her housekeeping skills and cooking!

    I know most said I had every reason to divorce her, but I say I am just as much at fault. The good thing is I've mellowed, and learned from those ten years of mistakes, taking what I learned and applying the to my current marriage!

    So, anyone thinking they are totally innocent is only fooling themselves and others around them! When something doesn't work out, there is usually enough fault to pass around. :tear:

    :wavey: Just my opinion and view of this great question. So please don't beat me up too bad with you opposing views! :laugh:
     
  19. Baptist Believer

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    That sounds like an excellent plan.

    May God bless you in your current and future ministry!
     

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