Integrity

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Mexdeaf, Apr 7, 2007.

  1. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
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    Look it up!

    I am a little perturbed that there have been unsubstantiated charges made against a certain school and individuals concerning the KJV issue. When proof was asked for, none was offered.

    It is fine to have opinions, preferences and convictions. Everyone does.

    But to base your opinions convictions and preferences (whatever they be) on circular reasoning, half-truths, and bald-faced lies shows a lack of integrity.

    We all need to practice it more.
     
  2. Keith M

    Keith M
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    Amen, Brother Mexdeaf! Preach it!
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Nothing beats eyewitnesses when it comes to history, amen brother? :wavey:
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Say, were all three if us there when this abandoning of the faith supposedly happened?
     
  5. Pastor_Bob

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    I can't say anything about TTU specifically, because I was not there. I do, however, have a preacher friend who is a TTU graduate from the mid 70's, and he believes exactly as do I about the text/version issue.
     
  6. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Which is extremely close to my POV. I have only recently seen the value of the NKJV as a valid translation due to the texts used and style of translation.
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Wasn't any of my teachers, was it any of yours, brother?
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Well, Pastor_Bob, he didn't get it at TTU in those days unless he had one particular Tenn. Temple Bible School teacher or a certain coach for a teacher (who didn't last long there). The Bible School was separate from the college and seminary. And as I said elsewhere Dr. Roberson shut down the controversy at one time (don't remember what year). The textual and translation issues of today just didn't exist in my classes at TTU (1972-1976, seminary fall of '76), or before that at BJU (1970-1972). I even heard Ruckman preach in the 1960's, but in those days he was only popular as a chalk talk evangelist.

    God bless.
     
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Nope. (I need to type more cause "nope" in not long enough to make the software happy :) )
     
  10. Pastor_Bob

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    I can't say for certain where he "got it," but I have heard him preach dozens of times and he and I are on the same page regarding this issue. For me the issue is the text and not the translation. BTW, I was not taught this position in Bible College. I arrived at my conclusions after hours and hours of independent study
     
  11. Askjo

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    Exactly, so am I.
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Same with me, brother. However, I don't preach Greek text issues, especially to my Japanese people. I have on occasion answered their questions privately, but preaching on the Greek text has nothing to do with their spiritual growth.
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Gotta have happy software! :laugh:
     
  14. Pastor_Bob

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    Nor do/did I. The pastor I succeeded laid a good foundation; consequently, the issue was a non-issue. My goal was to get my folks to read the Bible on a daily basis. It was a full-time task to get my people to become "doers of the Word and not hearers only."

    However, in my new capacity, I will have to teach the issue. I am determined to teach the issue based upon the facts as I see them and not merely repeat what some author happened to say. Fortunately, the pastor under whom I now serve is very learned in this area and is also very balanced in his presenting the issue to others.
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    Amen, Pastor Bob. Go for it. :thumbs:
     
  16. robycop3

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    Problem is, just because the various mss differ among themselves, we can't automatically rule one right & the other wrong. As I've said many times, people don't wanna take into account the fact that God may have providentially preserved Sinaiticus and/or Vaticanus, or any number of other mss not in the Byz "family". WE JUST DON'T KNOW! Again, we can't just automatically dismiss then just because they don't agree with our "pets".
     
  17. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    I've discovered something recently: Although I've always preached with some (or a lot, depending on the text) of support from the Greek text, usually just for nuances (after all, if the Holy Spirit found it important to make the distinction, why would I turn my nose up at it?), I have recently had to apologize for some statements that I made. [Ooh! We just had an earthquake! Haven't felt one in a long time.]

    Ironically, it is something that I should have noticed, due to the fact that my first college degree was in journalism, and I concentrated heavily on history and English.

    Sometimes, there are things that seem like poor translating in the KJV (which is my preference to use) that was good translating at the time, but the way we use words has changed. Often, when using a Greek word underlying the English, I would use a better word. It is better today, but not when it was translated.

    I'll give some examples in a moment, but I do want to say that I in no way think the KJV translators were infallibe, just as they did not think themselves so. There are some things that could be better, such as the story of Abraham and Abimalech. [OK, this is an aside, but the original manuscript uses each of their names seven times, it surrounds an oath, to make an oath is to "seven one's self", so the use of seven names is important. Most English translations use the personal pronoun "he", just as we would, but the use of the names is important. The NASB got it right, but most did not.]

    Well, many of our English words have changed meanings over the years, and many of our ("our" meaning American in this second "our") words are different than the rest of the English speaking world. I think that this is a tool that Satan uses to confuse the message.

    One example of this is "adoption". The word underlying "adoption" has to do with position within the family and not placement into the family. (The transliteration is "huiosthesia" and it means "son-placement"; "son" is a position, as opposed to "child", but that's another study.) Why does someone who is born from above (in the family) need to be adopted into the family? They don't. This was part of the lesson.

    So, as part of the lesson, I looked up "adoption" in the Princeton WordNet, and lo and behold, according to them, this is the primary definition of the word: " the act of accepting with approval; favorable reception; "its adoption by society"; "the proposal found wide acceptance"

    So, I looked up the etymology of the word, and it's from the Latin and is "to choose for oneself".

    Even in English, it did not mean, when the KJV was translated, nor is the primary definition today mean, "to place into a family". This has only become a dominant meaning of the word during the last 60-70 years.

    Even in English, the primary meaning of the word has to do with approval, just as the Greek word does. Not every child was placed as a son; only on approval.

    FWIW, a more appropriate word at the time of the translating of the KJV for placing someone into a family was "affiliation".

    So, I used the underlying Greek word, then the meaning of the English word at the time it was translated, and went on from there. (Ironically, there was one KJVO family at the church that got mad whenever you would use the Greek. They stated, "we're not KJVO, but if it doesn't match the KJV exactly, it's not truth". They got mad when I pointed out that I had been in error on that word, the KJV was right, but the usage is different. They were no longer KJVO at that moment.)

    Well, because of that first one, I have discovered others that fall into the same catgory; the category of "good translating, English changing". Words such as "hell" and "eternal" are big ones.
     
  18. robycop3

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    We say, for example, "The club ADOPTED a new policy when it was re-organized."

    The Greek mss are the oldest copies of the NT scriptures we have, & there's nothing wrong in teaching from them, IMO. After all, every valid translation we use is made from them.

    I'm sure you teach the difference in phileo and agape, a difference many translations miss, among others.

    I encourage you to keep using the talent god has given you to read & teach in English from the Greek & simply ignore the critics. After all, the MOST-CRITICIZED true preacher-teacher I know of was.....




    JESUS CHRIST.
     
  19. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Currently, I am, believe it or not, reading an etymology dictionary. I highly recommend getting one and at least thumbing through it. Don't get one of the cheap ones because they don't give good histories of the evolution of words. Even the Oxford Etymology Dictionary, which covers more words than others, simply gives the roots. Shell out the $200 or so for a good one.

    Read the words. Read the origins. Read the dates.

    Read it along with the KJV and the Greek (and another translation, if you use one).

    It's an eye-opening experience.

    There are many words in newer translations that have been influenced by a combination of the way we use words today and the way words were once used that distorts meanings of certain words.

    For example, a word used in the KJV in one sense could be used in a newer translation, but in the sense we use the word today. The example I used above was "adoption". To think of taking one from outside the family and then placing them in the family is confusing and contradictory to other passages when we see "adoption" in the KJV (and possible other translations; I haven't done a search on other translations).

    However, when seen in the light of the meaning at the time the KJV was translated, and the meaning of the underlying Greek word, (and in the case of adoption, a recent transformation), it makes the passages much clearer and does not seem like a works based experience or something.

    This discovery brought to mind something my great-grandmother said: "I liked Ada's biscuit recipe so much that I adopted it."

    I suggest doing the above to very common words such as "hell" and "eternal", BTW. Backtrack their usages through their English etymological history, read the passages in your favorite translation, read them in the KJV (there are more in the KJV due to several different words being translated as "hell"), then read them in the Greek. Then re-read them. Then again.
     
  20. Keith M

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    Roger, try "Noopy noopy." I checked one day and I think the system is happy with 10 characters. Of course here at BB we're ALL characters!

    :laugh: :rolleyes: :eek:
     

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