Intelligence, Policy,and the War in Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics' started by KenH, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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  2. carpro

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    Another so called counterintelligence "expert", along the lines of Richard Clarke,trying to cover his own culpability for intelligence failures.
     
  3. KenH

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    Wow, you're a fast reader, carpro. [​IMG]
     
  4. carpro

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    Read it earlier today during my internet news prowlings. [​IMG]

    But I am pretty fast, thanks. ;)
     
  5. KenH

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    I had wondered if you might have read it earlier in the day. [​IMG]

    When I printed the article, to take to a friend at work on Monday, it was almost six pages long.

    [ February 10, 2006, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: KenH ]
     
  6. KenH

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    Some observations:

    1) I find Mr. Pillar's recommendations for separating policy making from intelligence analysis to be items that the federal government needs to seriously consider.

    2) As Mr. Pillar mentions, it definitely appears that we had another Tonkin Gulf/Remember the Maine situation in being led by the Bush administration to invade Iraq.

    3) If I knew then what I know now I would not have supported invading Iraq. I should have gotten better informed instead of swallowing the administration's line. At least I am not making the same mistake when it comes to learning about the situation with Iran.
     
  7. JGrubbs

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    We all knew the Bush administration was planning on invading Iraq long before GWB was ever elected!
     
  8. elijah_lives

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    Anyone in the intel community knows Mr. Pillar had an ax to grind. Buyer beware.
     
  9. carpro

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    Pillar is a long time critic of the Administration and their methods of dealing with terrorism. He also seems to be nursing a grudge that his advice is being passed over in favor of other approaches.

    He has been known to nurse his grudge by leaking classified information in an effort to make the President look bad.

    He's another establishment CIA bureaucrat that believes the failed policies of the past will still work.

    He advocates negotiating with terrorists and is a firm member of the Blame America First crowd.


    http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/robertnovak/2004/09/27/13146.html

    CIA vs. Bush
    Sep 27, 2004
    by Robert Novak

    EXCERPT

    WASHINGTON -- A few hours after George W. Bush dismissed a pessimistic CIA report on Iraq as "just guessing," the analyst who identified himself as its author told a private dinner last week of secret, unheeded warnings years ago about going to war in Iraq. This exchange leads to the unavoidable conclusion that the president of the United States and the Central Intelligence Agency are at war with each other.


    SNIP

    The Bush-CIA tension escalated Sept. 15 when The New York Times reported a National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) that was circulated in August (not July as the newspaper reported), spelling out "a dark assessment of Iraq" with civil war as the "worst case" outcome. The NIE was prepared by Pillar, and well-placed sources believe Pillar leaked it, though he denied that at Tuesday night's dinner.

    The immediate White House reaction to the NIE, from spokesman Scott McClellan, was to associate it with "pessimists" and "hand-wringers." With Iraqi interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi at his side at the United Nations, Bush said of the CIA: "They were just guessing as to what the conditions might be like."

    A few hours later, Pillar discussed the Iraqi war in a context of increased aversion to the U.S. -- an attitude he said his East Asia section at the CIA was aware of three years ago and feared would be exacerbated by U.S. military intervention. When Pillar was asked why this was not made clear to the president and other higher authorities, his answer was that nobody asked -- not even DCI Tenet.
     
  10. KenH

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    Thanks for this info, carpro. [​IMG] Clearly, Mr. Pillar was correct and President Bush was wrong.

    I and millions of other Americans should not have allowed Mr. Bush to talk us into supporting Iraq. But I think we have learned our lesson.
     
  11. elijah_lives

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    I personally know Mr. Pillar from family connections, and he was not known as a team player. What carpro posted above is indeed well known in the community, and Pillar's credibility is suspect.
     
  12. KenH

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    I have more trust in Mr. Pillar than I do in George W. Bush.
     
  13. elijah_lives

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    On second thought, in the interest of fairness to Mr. Pillar (whom I do know personally), I withdraw my last post. I cannot defend my characterization of him without revealing my identity, which is unwise at the time being in light of two of my immediate relatives' need for anonymity. (However, I have already left enough clues for some in the intel community to recognize the identitiy of both me and my father). I stand by my first post in this OP.
     
  14. carpro

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    You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. But it doesn't necessarily make you right.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. ASLANSPAL

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    <pesonal attack deleted - LE>When I was given Black Hole and Skunk Works clearance during the B-2 bomber days not a peep
    came out of my mouth ...and now we get these silly statements from you ..which makes me think
    <personal attack deleted - LE>

    Now we will wait for the silly statement from you ..on how you cannot disclose anything...bunk and baloney on you.

    [ February 13, 2006, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]
     
  16. elijah_lives

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    Your opinion does not change reality. As I have said, those in the intel community at the time know who I and my father is and was. His identity is NOT classified, as he is deceased, in the line of duty. I too had a clearance, and I have not leaked ANY classified data.

    Doesn't matter to me what you think.
     
  17. elijah_lives

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    <edited - LE>
    I am a disabled veteran, whose job at the time of that disability (the first Gulf War) was as an Operations NCO for a mechanized infantry company. Part of my training included military intelligence and psychological operations, hence my job at that time. All of this is a matter of record on the DD 214 in my wallet, and is not classified information. I am not active in the intel community at this time, and not subject to any restrictions. My family members are active, in agencies I will not identify.

    There are no restrictions on any of the information I have discussed. I made an allegation against Mr. Pillar, whom I do know, then I had second thoughts about making them anonymously, and attempted to edit the post. The edit function was expired, so I made the second post retracting the allegation. ASLANSPAL then made an accusation <edited - LE>and that forced a response, which I did by PM. Since he has not retracted his allegation, I will identify my father.

    SGM Carleton Mott was killed in the line of duty in 1977. At that time, he was director of the Inteligence & Security Command (INSCOM) at Vint Hill Farms, VA, which replaced the Army Security Agency - the military equivalent of the National Security Agency. While his duties were classified, his identity was not. My mother later remarried back into the intel community. This is well-known in the tight-knit intelligence community.

    My point was that Mr. Pillar has an agenda, and that this is and was well known in the intel community. Therefore, his recent charges that President Bush "cherry-picked" intelligence to support war with Iraq should be considered with that in mind. He has consistently held that terrorism should be countered with diplomatic and international cooperation (i.e., a law enforcement strategy) rather than military force. He is entitled to his view. But I would note that he is a published author with books to peddle, and his views do not represent those of the CIA. The press has given this one man too much weight in their attempts to criticize President Bush, while ignoring those with other opinions.

    Since I have been forthcoming with this information, none of which is classified, I challenge ASLANSPAL to publicly do the same. Especially since he has claimed he "was given Black Hole and Skunk Works clearance during the B-2 bomber days." Millions of people are given security clearances; I was also granted one. Few direct intelligence angencies.

    I may have exercised bad judgement in anonymously accusing Mr. Pillar of carrying an agenda, but I attempted to correct that, and now have identified my family in response to ASLANSPAL's challenge. Now, I challenge him <edited - LE>.

    [ February 13, 2006, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]
     
  18. KenH

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    Mr. Pillar is not the only reputable person to make that charge.
     
  19. elijah_lives

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    Mr. Pillar is not the only reputable person to make that charge.

    No, he's not. But there have only been a handful. Every analysis from Congress has drawn opposite conclusions. The weight of conclusions are against those of Mr. Pillar.
     
  20. hillclimber

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    Aslanspal strikes again. Full of grace and diplomacy.
     

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