Intentional perversion of Christ's Words

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 1, 2013.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


    In order to deny the doctrine of effectual grace clearly taught in this passage one must intentionally close their eyes and be spirtually deaf and blind.

    1. GIVING precedes coming demanded by future tense "shall come"

    2. ALL not Some given do come - effectually 1 out of 1 coming to Christ

    3. NONE "of all" given lost - effectual 1 out of 1

    4. The Son is being held responsible for making the will of the Father effectual in regard to "ALL" given. - vv. 38-39 - and the Son NEVER fails to carry out His Father's will -NEVER - effectual


    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    1. "believe not" IS EQUAL TO "no man can come unto me"
    2. "given" IS EQUAL to "believe"

    ONLY those who have eyes but cannot see and ears but cannot hear can fail to see that this text clearly defines "come unto me" as "believe" in Christ and the only reason for unbelief in Christ or failing to come to Christ is the ability to believe has not been "given" unto that person by the Father.

    John 6:29 clearly states that the ability to believe in Christ is the work of God. This work is being given by the Father to the Son for that very purpose -The elective purpose of God. This work is being drawn by the Father to the Son, the sovereign effectual power of God not "given" to all - vv. 64-65

    This is so clear, so obvious that Christ's words must be INTENTIONALLY perverted, distorted, and abused to deny it. For those readers who are OBJECTIVE and can read and accept plain English you know I am telling the truth. Those who deny this are spiritually blind and intentionally love it that way as they hate the truth.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Dec 1, 2013
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  2. Iconoclast

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Indeed "I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

    The drawing of the unqualified - unlimited "ALL" enables the choice for "ALL" that depravity would normally disable.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Correct. And by what means does He draw them?

    "15 Then He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:15-16

    After He was RAISED up he sent the gospel to be proclaimed to all creation, as it is the power of God unto salvation. In John 6 that gospel had not yet been fulfilled (death, burial, resurrection was not completed, and the apostles were not commissioned to go), so how could the world be enabled to come to him at that time? Only a few, who the Father had given to Christ, were granted that noble purpose.
     
  5. laneybenson

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    The question is...who does the Father give to the Son? The answer is in verse 40.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Those who see the Son and believe on Him are given to the Son by the Father. Those will have everlasting life and be raised on the last day.

    To another point of GIVING preceding COMING. Of course it does, election is a fact of eternity past. But that in itself does not state any conditions, if any, of election, just that the election itself has occurred previously to the coming of the sinner to Christ.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    laneybenson

    Welcome to BB,

    This makes it clear when this took place....

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    God does not look ahead as if to learn something....So All The Father gives shall come....no more, no less......Jesus saves all who are given to Him...not one is lost....
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    30 I and my Father are one.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Welcome aboard.



    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    "How I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not" Matt 23

    "God so loved THE WORLD that He gave... yes really!" John 3.

    "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3

    "I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32

    "I STAND at the door and KNOCK if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Welcome to the forum.

    Verse 40 is not presented as a question. Note the final phrase in verse 40 is simply a repitition of the final phrase in verse 39. Hence, the "every one" in verse 40 cannot be anyone OUTSIDE of the "of all" which were given to the Son in verses 37-39. Verse 40 simply individualizes and personalizes with regard to application what is generalized in verses 37-39 by the word "all."

    Thus "every one" in verse 40 refers to no one outside the "of all" in verse 39 that have been given to come to Christ for the very purpose to be raised to eternal life (v. 39b).

    However, your interpretation REVERSES the stated cause and consequence relationships between being given and coming and obtaining eternal life. Jesus makes being given the cause for both whereas you reverse this and make "any one" coming the cause of being given and eternal life.



    First, election is "TO salvation" (2 Thes. 2:13) not BECAUSE OF savlation as your rationalization demands.

    Second, the future tense "shall come" does in fact demand being given is a necessary condition to coming just as being given in John 17:2 with the further qualifying "as many as" demands that being given is the necessary condition for obtaining "eternal life."

    Third, note the limitations or boundaries being put in place in John 6:37-40. NONE can come to the Son but those given or otherwise there is no rationale in giving them to the Son in the first place. All given are the all who come and "OF ALL" none are lost. The "any one" simply INDIVIDUALIZES the "of all" in verse 39 as both verse 39b and 40b refer only to those given and NONE OTHERS. Verses 37-39 scream out that being given is a NECESSARY CONDITION for coming just as John 17:2 screams out that being given is the NECESSARY CONDITION for obtaining eternal life. Grammatically the future tense "shall come" in verse 37 demands that being given is the necessary condition for coming just as it is the necessary condition in John 17:2 for obtaining eternal life both of which are combined in verse 40 as the consequence based upon the condition of first being given by the Father for that purpose ("will" - vv. 38-39).
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Dec 3, 2013
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  9. The Biblicist

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    John 6 occurs first in time and is the exposition of what it means to be drawn and John 6:64-65 proves that not "ALL" men without exception have been drawn. So your REVISIONIST interpretation of Jn 12:32 is false and contradictory to already established exposition and application of this doctrine in John 6.

    Furthermore, it ignores the immediate context of John 12 as verse 32 is simply an expansion of John 12:19-31 in regard to NON-JEWS or the "Greeks" seeking Christ. The term "all" is no different and includes none others than the term "all" in the initial exposition by Christ on this in John 6:37-39 - the elect which John 12:32 demands includes NON-JEWS or "all" without distinction of race.

    However, you do not care about proper exegesis or the truth but in simply acing like a parrot and repeating your nonsense over and over hoping someone will swallow this nonsense.
     
  10. convicted1

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    The word "intentional" is a bad choice of words, imo. I don't think their side of the debate intentionally perverts His word. They just see it differently than we do........
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Not with some on this forum. There is no other suitable term to describe the way they deal with the scriptures over and over again regardless of the plain and unanswerable evidence placed before them that their methods and responses are simply not objective or honest.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Not according to Hebrews 4 "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

    And Romans 10
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily,
    their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
    A quote of Psalms 19:1-4 and how nature witnesses about God.


    Romans 1 and Psalms 19 claim that this witness reaches all - in all ages.


    And so "they are without excuse" who choose rebellion over obedience to God.


    In all ages.


    Heb 11 holds up the OT saints - as the giants of faith for NT saints to meditate about and learn from.

    When did God "So Love the WORLD"?? Before He sent His Son to die for mankind - or afterwards?


    in Christ,


    Bob
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    John 6:38 demands that God's will of purpose has determined beforehand not only the scope of who are included in this "all" but the purpose for being given to Christ which is that NONE shall be lost.

    Christ is given the responsibility by the Father to secure that ultimate purpose, which is impossible to secure by the Son for any who were not given to him for that ultimate purpose. Hence, being given is the necessary condition for coming to Christ because Christ is not entrusted by the Father to accomplish that ultimate purpose for any but those given to him by the Father. If you deny being given is the necessary condition for coming to Christ, then you deny that it is necessary for the Father to give anyone to Christ as "any one" could come to Christ whether they are given to him or not thus invalidating and making foolish the very need for the Father to give anyone to the Son.

    However, coming to Christ is EFFECTUAL as ALL given do in fact come and "of all" given NONE are lost. There is no EFFECTUAL coming outside of this "all" who are given and therefore "any one" in verse 40 can only refer to those inside "of all" who were given. "any one" simply individualizes and personalizes what has been generalized in verses 37-39 and that is proven by several contextual facts, but most clearly by the same concluding remark found in verse 39 "of all" given which concludes verse 40 proving that being given to Christ is for the coming to Christ for eternal life as John 17:2 spells out in no uncertain terms.

    As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Being given is the NECESSARY CONDITION for Christ to give eternal life just as being given is the NECESSARY CONDITION for anyone coming to Christ for that ultimate purpose.

    However, your interpretation reverses this cause and effect relationships and make coming to Christ the necessary condition for being given by the Father and the necessary condition for obtaining eternal life when Christ says the very reverse.

    The truth is:

    1. God's elective will of purpose determines who comes to Christ - vv. 37-40

    2. God's power determines the how they come to Christ - vv. 40-45 - thus securing that "ALL" given are "ALL" that come so that "NONE" are lost - vv. 37-40.

    3. God's elective will of purpose and power are not universally applied to anyone outside those given - vv. 64-65

    Those in verse 64 did not believe/did not come because IT WAS NOT GIVEN TO THEM to come by the Father - v. 65. Hence, the "all" of John 12:32 is the "all" of John 6:37-39; 45a or those chosen by the Father to be given to the Son before the Son ever entered the world - Jn. 6:38/Eph. 1:4/2Thes. 2:13 and NONE ELSE.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Dec 3, 2013
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  14. The Biblicist

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    Moreover, the "will" in verses 38-39 is the DETERMINED SOVERIGN WILL of God as God provides all the means to EFFECTUALLY secure the end for "ALL" who are the objects of His will of purpose -which is NONE shall be lost.

    The Son entered the world (v. 38a) for the very purpose to EFFECTUALLY SECURE that end for a specific people given to him for that specific end. Christ did not say he came into the world to secure that end for anyone other than "all" the Father gave for that designated purpose.

    Hence, "any one" that believes cannot possibly include any one outside those "given" by the Father to "COME to me" (believe in me) as Christ never said, "All that cometh to me SHALL the Father give to me" but that is exactly what Arminians force this text to say in order to justify their false doctrine of salvation.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Not a lot of "you quoting you" to make the case - very little of the actual text shows up in text-bending exercises -- just as we might expect.

    There is no text in John 6 that says "all drawn will come to Christ" so the effort to simply "insert that idea" is not lacking.

    In the mean time - you may quote all of John 6 and not find one single verse saying "All drawn will come to Christ" or "All drawn will come to the Father".

    The creative ways to "makeup the lack" are unending.

    "He came to His OWN
    and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1 is instructive at this point.

    "How I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not" Matt 23

    Key context in vs 35.

    John 6
    35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
    40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

    Hint - Jesus never blames God the Father for those who 'behold and yet do not believe".


    "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3

    "I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32

    "I STAND at the door and KNOCK if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Dec 3, 2013
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  16. BobRyan

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    How fortunate then that John 6 does NOT say "I do NOT draw ALL unto Me" only to have John 12:32 so "Oh yes I DO draw ALL unto Me".

    John 6:64-65 say " not ALL are drawn" -- for that bit of contradiction we would need a Calvinist to "quote himself".

    The expansion from a couple of non-Jews asking to see Jesus John 12:19-31 to "I will DRAW ALL unto ME" John 12:32 - is not the great "limit" that Calvinism would like to impose - in fact there is no limit at all in that progression.

    Which is another point where the Calvinist argument fails.

    Basic Bible facts - Bible details - refute Calvinism on this subject.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Here is a prime example of one on this forum who intentionally and repetively chooses to ignore all evidences placed before him that his use of scripture violates context, common sense and rules of hermeneutics and no matter how often you point out grammatical, contextual, interpretative errors he willfully chooses to ignore all evidences and simply repeats error like a parrot. This is the characteristic trait of those who have been hardened in their resistance to light.
     
  18. convicted1

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    Brother Bob Ryan, you keep posting John 12:32 and Christ drawing all. Here's the greek word used for "draw" in that verse:


    ἕλκω G1670

    I.
    to draw, drag off

    II.
    metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

    So, if Jesus does draw all to Himself, then everyone would/will be saved.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Only if the Bible had ever said "All DRAWN will come to Me".

    The Bible never says that.

    The supernatural power of God to DRAW ALL is seen again in Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and KNOCK - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev

    It all works - if one does not eisegete meaning into the text that is not there.

    There is a "crush your freewill and drag you like a zombie" insert in the Calvinist model - that is missing from scripture's view of "Draw".

    Thus "He CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Dec 3, 2013
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  20. convicted1

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    The word used in the greek states to drag, to compel. It's not something they can stop, iow.

    Look at how it's worded. It say that "if any man will hear my voice". The natural man will never hear His voice, only the inner man that has been given ears to hear with. The natural man will never hear this if he is left in his fallen state. Those who have been regenerated will hear His voice.

    God crushed our stony heart and gave us a heart of flesh. This takes place with regeneration. We aren't zombies, but were dead in trespasses and sins, unable to do any works in regards to being saved. We had no desire to come to Him until He first worked in our hearts, giving us a new fleshly heart. He also gave us ears to hear with. Ears the goats will never have.
     
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