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Interpretation of John 6:35-40

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    I was there once w/ my beliefs. I always fell back to the "W/ God things don't have to logically line up... look at the Trinity." I still think there is value in that, but I eventually rejected the concept of a freed volitional capacity opting for a volitional capacity that is marred by sin to the extent that the unbeliever cannot believe w/out God's intervening grace.

    Anywho... you should read Geisler's book Chosen But Free which they just put out a new 2010 edition (you've really never heard of Norman Geisler, big time apologist... Stormin' Norman ;)?)... it argues for the same thing and may help to reaffirm your position. At the least, it will help you better interact w/ the debate. I don't agree w/ it now, but I thought it was helpful at the time.
     
  2. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Thank you for the information. To answer you no I am not familiar with either person. I may have come across their names in some discussion, but mostly I shy away from too many writers outside the bible as I find they tend to cloud what is written by giving opinions that usually explain away the text in some fashion or another. Also I am always concerned that I will find someone who agrees with me and use that as a cruch to continue to support a false belief I might unknowingly hold.
    Mostly I just spend time with the text looking at some Greek and Hebrew through some scholars relying on the Lord to guide me, with the intent on keeping things as close to what is written as possible and making sure it all agrees with other passages of equal value.
    Again thank you for the information. I may take a look at it so as to test my view but not so as to support it, admittedly a difficult thing to accomplish.
     
    #62 freeatlast, Nov 17, 2011
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  3. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough...

    BTW... I only mentioned Norman Geisler (aka stormin' Norman). He is a smart guy. You might also profit from his recent 4 volume systematic he put out. Volume 1 was pretty good since his forte is definitely truth, philosophy, and apologetics.
     
  4. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Again thank you. I have already looked into it. I have just not decided as of yet what to do.
     
  5. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    I agree that the Jews here in context were spiritually blind. I have no issue with this statement. They could not believe because their hearts could not see Jesus or spiritually understand His words just like Isaiah said. I think your last sentence is a little shady. When looking at verses 37 and 39 we see that those who are coming b/c they were given to Jesus by the Father. Thus they were drawn because in and of themselves they could not come. That is what the Father's giving looks like. The Father draws the sheep into Jesus by the Spirit of life. References include 6:37, 39, 44, 63, 70. I realize how hard it is for both of us to read outside of our preconceived notions here, but I think John 10:25-29 expresses the same thoughts Jesus had in John 6:35-40, but in a slightly different tone. Jesus said to the Jews that they did not believe, not because they chose not to or understood less, but because "you are not of My sheep" (v. 26). What do the sheep look like (remember 6:44, 45, 63, 37, and 39 here)? "My sheep hear my voice". In Mathew 13 it says "to you it has been given to know" the secrets of the kingdom of God". In other words the disciples and all other sheep of God hear, are taught by the Father, are given to the Son, are drawn in, and so forth. now 10:29, "My Father has given them to Me". So here we see that it is indeed the sheep that the Father has given and there are more of them than just the disciples as some here are trying to narrow chapter 6 down to (see 10:16).


    There is truth to this but that single purpose does not limit the context and implications of it.




    In your commentary on verse 38 you said that Jesus came to pay for every man. I won't get much into this statement because I dont want to shift our attention away from unresolved issues, but verse 39 disagrees with you because those given to the Son are the sheep, not just the disciples or a select group of the sheep. Again I would refer you to later statements that Jesus taught the same truth but with more depth in 10:16, 25-29.

    That is an interesting thought, I always understood this passage as seeing Jesus spiritually rather than physically. I do think it is seeing spiritually although in either case it does not effect the interpretation. If you see how it effects one interpretation or the other please comment.
     
  6. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    I do not think this is a fair statement based on the work I have already laid down from John 6, 12, and 10 showing otherwise. But if we disagree here no need to keep debating. Thanks for your time.

    If you wish to think through the large context here that is beyond chapter 6 that is fine you will need to examine the passages I have laid out to conclude my view. If you do go outside of John's gospel I would keep in line with similar teachings such as Mathew 13, but it may only open up more cans than we can close.

    Those who the Father gives the Son are those who believe. we agree here. Our disagreement is on which comes first. I am showing how belief does not come before God gives and draws His sheep (His sheep terminology can also be called elect). My references include 6:37, 39, 44-45, 63-65, 70; 10:16, 25-29 and if you wish to go outside the box Mathew 13:11 showing how God grants/teaches His chosen vessels.

    Your continual use of 63-66 does not show faith preceding God's giving to the Son. All it says is "the flesh profits nothing" and "it is the Spirit who gives life" through Jesus words. Jesus words in and of themselves left the majority of Jews lost, confused, blind, and even more hateful of His teaching they could not reconcile with the OT. That is why God has to draw and teach these ignorant people (and us) to understand who Jesus is to see His value. Once we get it or see the light so to speak we come to Jesus. I probably said to much here.
     
  7. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Which in this context Jesus started with over 5,000 people the previous day and is now left with His chosen 12 and maybe a few more who did not abandon His hard teaching they could not understand. This is a philosophical question but why do you think so many people couldn't get it or how do you think God hardens? I appeal to the curse of the flesh that comes from Adam. This is probably a good topic outside of this discussion though because we are already leaving the original post and debating only Calvinism at this point. Maybe another thread :). But in this topic to respond to your question look at my response to Winman right before this one. I think you will find that God's teaching, drawing, and the Holy Spirit are the ones who effectually (work for a purpose without fail) draw in the sheep so they aren't coming to Christ with blind faith. All those that God does this to 6:37, 39; 10:25-29 will come, will be saved, will hear, and will never lose their salvation. Does that make sense?

    Yes, this is directly affect by 1 and 3 listed. God's giving to the Son is what sets up everything. When God has picked a person to experience grace He draws them and gives them to the Son. This includes His teaching them (Mtt 13:11) and that work of the Spirit 63:-65. Again look at John 10:26 for the primary purpose of unbelief "you do not believe" WHY? "because "you are not my sheep". If the Jews would have been the sheep they would have believed WHY? "My sheep hear My voice" WHY? "My Father who has given them to Me". Going back to verse 26 Jesus didn't say you do not believe because you have chosen not to believe in Me. He literally knew they were hardened and left blind and cursed by God in judicial punishment. He knew the impossibility for them to see something without God drawing and teaching them (6:44-63) but yet He also knew that if they did the impossible and came to them there would be no rejection.

    In the Old Covenant God was the Shepherd of Israel and technically in John it is the Old Covenant still. The Jews were always a nation who were considered the flock of God. In the New Covenant and new agenda set by Jesus we already see a change in line with God's promise to Abraham "I will bless all nations through you" (John 4). So God no longer was "primarily" calling a people from the Jews through Jesus but rather left them in sin as Sodom and Gomorrah. God's primary work in the New Covenant was to draw some Jews but also Gentiles. It could be argued that they made up a large portion of the church at first but I wouldn't know how to tell without studying it. That is why I believe Jesus said, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd" (10:16). The sheep in focus in the New Covenant are elected vessels from all nations now rather than just Jews. We see this beautifully in Paul's letter to the Ephesians chapters 1 and 2. Whoops I broke y rules :)
     
  8. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    I'm not sure if I misunderstand your statement here or not, so I wont assume anything on you. If John 6 goes against your rule on free will would you change? The answer to most of is including myself at times is "no" because it is like pulling teeth. We are to concerned with preconceived notions to listen to Scripture. Do you adhere to a Molinistic style teaching?
     
  9. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Ahh I see, you are right I misunderstood you. My apologies. I still have absolutely no idea how you get justification from 6:37 even with your word scramble job. I am no Greek expert but knowing word order is unimportant I cannot look at the English and refute you here, but I do not think that fits the context. The context shows giving (drawing), coming (faith), and never casting out (security of the believer who comes). Maybe someone else from either side would chime in.





    So you hold election happens at the time of justification? I wont take this to far and will leave it at your answer when you give it.
     
  10. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Can you explain verses 37 and 39 and why you see them differently?

    I understand that other Scriptures come into mind and can change this partcular passages interpretation which in some cases can be a safe practice. The goal is to do our best in each passage alone first then start taking other passages into consideration. If there are obvious contradicitions we did something wrong somewhere. With that said I would hope you add #3 esplanation to your explanation to number 2
     
    #70 zrs6v4, Nov 17, 2011
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  11. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    The only person I have not responded yet to is Skandelon. My brain hurts from trying to wrap it around everyones different ideas (And some of them are very foreign to my thinking). When I cool down maybe later or tomorrow I will reply to Skandelon first so I can reply with clear thinking.
     
  12. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    what strikes me very oddly is that while we Cals are seen as being aloof and looking down on others as "beneath" us , at least bother to read our own materials, while Many Non cals seem to not read anything other than the Bible at all!
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    If you're speaking of sovereignty as do Calvinist. Sovereignty is not a dictatorship as according to them. Sovereignty is Rule with freedom of thought. The Calvinist definition does not exist except in there minds. No one is elect before the foundation of the world except Christ. If we are elect in Christ we most certainly have to be in Christ to be so. We are not in Christ before the foundation of the world. We simply did not exist before the foundation of the world.

    Augustinianism is nothing more than a facsimile of the truth. Therefore the whole of it is corrupt.
    Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    It was evil in the beginning of it and still is. God may have known about us because He knows all. Yet that doesn't mean we could have been in Him at the time.
    MB

     
  14. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Let me answer the last first. I am not even sure what is involved in Molinistic style teaching so I am not able to give you an answer. You asked me this;
    " If John 6 goes against your rule on free will would you change"
    Actually I have no rule and I accept John 6. I simply believe what the bible teaches on this and it teaches free will as well as sovereign election. I believe both.
     
    #74 freeatlast, Nov 17, 2011
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The reason many Calvinist cannot come to grips with my views is first they think my view is simply a scrambled Arminian view, which it is not. Second, they read verses like John 6:37 thinking they are understanding the verse when they are misunderstanding the verse.

    I believe God corporately elected "us" i.e. everyone in Christ, per Ephesians 1:4. But the mechanism for being individually put into the corporately elected group is our individual election per 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where God chooses us for salvation through the sanctification by the Holy Spirit, i.e. the Holy Spirit sets us apart when He spiritually places us into Christ's body, and through faith in the truth,i.e. God chooses us based on crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

    As far as John 6:35-45, my order is exactly as presented. I am not relying on tricky Greek grammar, it says what I say in the English translations.

    Here is the HCSB translation of John 6:37-39:

    37 Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never cast out. (A) 38 For I have come down from heaven, (B) not to do My will, but the will of Him (C) who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me: that I should lose none of those He has given Me but should raise (D) them up on the last day.

    I understand "everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me" to mean everyone the Father places spiritually in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, will come or arrive in Me. So my order is the same, but the assumed action of give to me and come to me is very different than the Calvinist view.

    Second the one who comes to (arrives in) Me I will never cast out, i.e. is saved forever.
    I think we agree on this. Therefore Christ will lose none of those given Him by God spiritually placing them in Christ.

    My view is simple and straightforward and scrambles nothing. It just is a fresh way of understanding what Paul is actually saying.
     
    #75 Van, Nov 17, 2011
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  16. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    You are trying to separate the two or lean to one side more then the other. I am saying I believe in them both. Just like I believe that Jesus is 100% a man and 100% God I believe in 100% Sovereign election and 100% free will. Both are taught so I am not a middle of the road person on this. I believe totally in both sovereign election from eternity past and free will without causing the person to accept or reject even though I cannot explain how they can possibly work together.
     
  17. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Fresh way, but not so sure that it would be a biblical view on pauline theology!
     
  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I think it goes both to Jesus' flesh, and also Him Spiritually. Peter, James, and John saw Jesus "unveiled", when He showed them Himself Spiritually on the mount of transfiguration. The others believed Jesus by His words, plus the works/miracles He performed. So, some believed Him, even though they did not see Him in His "unveiled" glory.
     
  19. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    ok what does John 6 teach? :)
     
  20. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    It teaches free will as well as sovereign election.
     
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