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Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by SaggyWoman, Mar 30, 2002.
I have several questions that I would like to ask about your interracial experiences.
After looking at the results, I'd have to say that we seem to have made some progress in racial relations.
Once again the poll will not allow me to respond so I will have to do it this way.
No, I have only dated those of the human race.
They were strongly opposed. They thought humans should only date humans.
I don't think it should happen. Humans should only date other humans!
Yes, I have a cat and a dog who are good friends
No. Only humans in our membership.
Okay! Get the picture? There is only one race of intelligent beings on this planet, the human race! The bible doesn't know anything about "race!" Race is based on the assumptions of evolutionary biology which tries to say that some people are more evolved than others, and thus it is acceptable for the "more evolved" to discriminate against the "less evolved." Hog wash! One race, the race of Adam! The sooner we purge our thinking of this foolishness the sooner we will realize there are only two kinds of people in the world, those who know Christ as Saviour and those who don't! And those who know Christ should be preaching to those who don't!
I can appreciate what you are saying, Doc Cassidy, and 99 percent of the time I forget that the color of our skin is of any concern.
But once in a while, I hear a statement made that just makes me sick to my stomach, especially when it comes to the children in my church who are attending that are either of mixed cultures or who are not "American". When hearing these statements, these times are one of very few where the steam gets to boiling in my head and has to exit blowing out my ears.
I just wish people would shut up already about it. Your point is well taken about everyone needing Jesus.
Most evolutionists would not subscribe to hogwash suggesting that one race is superior than another.
That notion that Cassidy refers to goes back to 19th century Social Darwinism which had little basis in evolution or in science.
Many folks believe in the Cartoon Theory of Evolution. That one's about racism and so on.
The real one is quite different.
However, Cassidy is quite right. There are no biological races among humans. Race is a cultural construct, and it differs from culture to culture as to how many races there really are.
[ April 01, 2002, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: The Barbarian ]
Saggy, I so understand what you mean! I gave birth to only one child, a son. He favors his father in looks, dark skin, black hair and beautiful brown eyes. No doubt, he looks Native American or even of Mexican heritage. But his fathers side of the family denies either one. So, what difference does it make? Many times others haven't accepted him because of how he looks. When he was graduating from the eighth grade, you were supposed to ask a young lady to walk with you during the procession. My son's best friend, he is black/white, asked a young girl whose family attended our same church. This in no way is some sort of date, just graduation procession! This girl said yes, then the next day told him she couldn't. He asked my son to ask her, because he thought it could be racial. My son, asked and the same thing happened. So, another friend of theirs asked her, he was white...she was allowed to walk with him. My son and the first young man both attended the same church with this young lady and her parents, the young man that ended up walking with her, was of a different religion. At the time, I didn't understand what the problem was, and I still don't. I've prayed about it several times, mostly because I no longer see them in the same way as I once did. And I, in no way would want to hurt them, even though I was hurt by their actions. I suppose this is something that many have to deal with on an everyday basis, I just never really had to until I had my son.
I grew up in Seattle (where there are a lot of Filipinos, --which is my ancestry), so of course, I was in the "norm", then moved to Oklahoma, where there were Native Americans as well as an even mixture of blacks and whites, so racial issues were "limited". I was many times assumed to be Indian. Couldn't get any money, so I didn't act like one.
When I lived in Texas, many Mexicans would come to me and start trying to speak Spanish. Hola, I don't habla much. But I can't honestly say that I feel like I have been dogged because of race.
I do know there have been a few times I have been looked down someone's snooty nose because of racial trauma on their part, but honestly, I tend to make extreme light of them, and they tend to leave me alone after one time of that.
There also have been a few times I have been deeply hurt because of either being bi-racial, or people not having a clue about how not important race is.
Saggy, we live in a very small town in Oklahoma for the last 15 years, but we are not considered true locals. This small town has no African Americans, no Native Americans and the only time you see any one of Mexican heritage is when it's time to pick watermelons from the fields. Once in a while, children will be here thru foster care families, but they really aren't accepted. The majority of small towns in Oklahoma are very much like this one.
On the other hand, during summer break and Christmas break, my son works at Wal-Mart in a town that is majority Native Americans, about 40 minutes from us. This is where my mother works, and where my parents live, so he stays with him a lot of the time when he is working. He is mistaken for Native American on a daily basis, but it is really a good thing because they are the majority. So...it's not really a problem, also since he started college, in a larger town, with a very mixed race of people, he's had no problems. I just think you'll see more racial bias in certain locations, and the Christian community should not be left out.
I would just like to correct you (to borrow your phrase).
You assume that evolutionary hypotheses originated with Darwin during the Victorial era? Actually evolutionary hypotheses predate Victoria by about 3000 years.
Cassidy is again correct. Among the first evolutionists were some of the first important Christian theologians.
But evolutionary theory points out that there are no biological human races. In fact, the most serious and vicious racists in America are those who deny evolution entirely.
I don't think the KKK is much of a supporter of evolutionary theory. They descrive themselves as fundamentalists. Bob Jones University sure isn't.
Not to say that all fundamentalists are racists. The vast majority of them are no more racist than anyone else. The SBC has denounced racism and expressed regret for any racism in its earlier history.
But you won't find any major evolutionists today who have that kind of prejudice. It's just not supported by the evidence.
Actually, it probably originated with the ancient Phoenicians.
You seem to have missed the point. Racism has its roots in evolutionary theory. That theory is/was flawed. Later men of science who have actually studied human genetics dismiss the evolutionary basis of racism as being pseudo-science (rather on the same level as the theory of Cesare Lombroso). But, as in most such cases, the superstructure remains long after the foundations have been destroyed!
This is totally false. Biblical creationists are not racists. This it totally ad hominem. I can't speak for the view of the KKK on origins and its relation to the racism. However, they are most certainly not fundamentalists, in the sense that theology uses the word. And there is no necessary tie between fundamentalists and racism. One can be fundamentalist and not be racist as is evidenced by Bob Jones University.
Yes but where is the racism in this? Who was being discriminated against? The races were treated equally, which by definition fails to measure up to racism. We can disagree on whether or not the policy was right or wrong but it most certainly was not racism.
I don't know but once again, where is the racism? Is one race being treated differently than the other? I don't think so.
Yes but was that news accurate? They jumped on Bush for going the BJU, something that many presidential candidates have done over the last twenty years. It wasn't an issue then and it shouldn't have been this year. It was a platform for a speech and as was made clear, the platform for a political speech does not imply agreement with all the positions held by the institution. Reagan, Bush, Quayle, Falwell, Robertson, Keyes, and Buchanon (the last two notably Catholics) all spoke there, some more than once. McCain tried ot speak there but withdrew his request when the flack blew up about it. Democrats have spoken there. Local politicians, state politicians have spoken there. Where was the problem? It wasn't a big deal in the news media when Al Gore spoke at a Jewish gathering where the women reportedly had to stand outside.
It is a sad state of affairs when the emotions run high and cloud the actual truth behind the sound bytes.
Are you arguing that it was racist agianst whites or against blacks? A case can be made either way, or more appropriately neither way.
A policy based on race is not racism, at least not according to popular media culture. Witness the affirmative action policy which has been denied to be racist (though it inherently is moreso than this because it involves unequal standards for people based on race). Racism is, according to Miriam Webster, "1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race; 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination." None of this applies here. I am sure that somewhere you can find a definition that will suit your fancy however.
The point is that the races were not treated equally and they were not segregated socially. Furthermore, it was not a mandated issue. Every student there was a voluntary submitant to the rules of the institution. They were free to leave at any time. Furthermore, they were not told that they couldn't date. They were told that so long as they were voluntarily enrolled at that institution, they could not date each interracially. There was no exclusion from programs or access to programs, neither was there any double standard for one race as opposed to another.
No because racism is not defined that way. Again, a policy based on race has (wrongly) been established as a fair and necessary policy.
You might argue that I am being too picky here but I don't think so. I think racism by definition involves different standards of treatment based on inherent consequences of policies for which there is no reprieve. I don't see that happening. Affirmative action is a racist policy because it involves different standards for different people based in part on their race. At this time, that is a legal policy. Hopefully it will be soon overturned.
Don't mistake me for condoning the policy. I am an agnostic on this matter. I do not think interracial relationships are wrong but at the same time, there are many issues to be considered that are too often overlooked. Personally, I just don't care who dates who so long as believers date believers. I am simply stating what I believe to be a misconception about racism in fundamentalism.
We would all do well on this topic to step back and lower our rhetoric. Racism has become a code word for so much today that it has lost its meaning. I think society has been far too loose with the word and the result has been a weakening of minorities by creating a class complex. It has created unnecessary and unfortunate stratas in our society. I live in a city that is probably as black as any city in the country. An interesting thing happened last year. The state legislature had passed legislation that any school district that did not meet the state standards of education would be taken over by the governor, have its school board disbanded, and have the governor appoint a school board to bring the district up to date. When the Detroit school district fell prey to this law, many cried racism because a white governor was taking over a black school district. The white governor did this by appointing a black superintendent. There was a great cry of racism from a community that had been taught that failure was acceptable. This was so ingrained that in a recent school choice vote last year, 70% of Detroiters voted to keep their kids in a failing school and to take away their options for choice.
Race baiting and racial sensitivities are too often flamed by bad choices and bad leadership. It is time that get back to what racism really is, the unequal treatment of someone based on their skin color.
[ April 04, 2002, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Fine. Ignore the entire body of human literature for the past 3 or 4 thousand years. It seems to me, as an educator, that there is nothing on the earth quite so self assured of his own omniscience than a college boy! It will take years for you to discover how little you really know. When you do I hope you can weather the storm.
I will say this most evolutionists are not racists, at least not the ones I know or have heard of and if one were to do a survey of creationists and evolutonists and their views on race I tend to think creationists would tend to be the more rascist leaning. As far as Cassidy's views on it, I never saw the "college boy" suggest that he knew it all. I would also suggest Mr Cassidy refrain from personal attacks and stick to facts. I could say more, but I choose not to on that. I for one don't know everything though, in fact I think I know very little, at least very little of what I would like to know.
[ April 05, 2002, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: DanielS25 ]
It's clear enough that Bob Jones didn't think segregation was racist, and later didn't think rules against interracial dating and marriage were racist.
Apparently, some people have highly personal defintions of that term.
Henry Morris himself, who took creationism from the Adventists, and transplanted it to evangelicals, wrote some very disappointing attacks on one race in particular.
So why has evolution moved society away from racism? Because scientists know that there are no such things as human races in any biological sense.
As Bob Jones U. and other entities demonstrate, some creationists (not all, certainly) have yet to learn that.
As Cassidy says, we are all of the human race.