Investigative Judgement

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by vooks, May 9, 2015.

  1. vooks

    vooks
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    Just about every other sect/cult craft a new doctrine UNIQUE to them. SDAs under Ellen White invented Investigative Judgement. The doctrine is so convoluted, it has been mutating since it was developed to accommodate its own inconsistencies.

    What is Investigative Judgement?
    This doctrine teaches that Christ began investigating and judging His people in 1844. He started with the dead believers, and when He is finished with their cases, He will begin judging the living believers near the end of time. During this Investigative Judgment God either blots out the sins of the believer, or he removes the name of the believer from the Book of Life. When His judgment is complete, the door of probation will be shut and Jesus will return to earth to reward His people according to their works

    For now, am just interested in finding if there has ever been traces of this doctrine in the entire Christian history Before 1844. So am calling my brothers from Adventism, One Baptism, BobRyan and others to help me in this inquiry.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    This is the same kind of empty rant that the Jews had against the Christians ... nothing new there.

    As for the subject of the judgment we see it explained from the Bible on this thread - #1

    Bible details matter - even though for some the only thing that seems to matter is the gospel of "rant".

    The Christians ask "what does the Bible say -- we shall believe that"
    The papists ask "what does man say -- we shall believe that"



    As noted on that thread where the Bible is the rule for faith and doctrine on the subject of the judgment - not simply an "empty rant gospel"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, May 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2015
  3. vooks

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    I take that as a NO full of infantile rants
    Nobody taught about it for 1900 years till Ellen White showed up. YHWH hid it from His church till fullness of time
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    God has ALREADY judged all believers in Jesus as being Not Gulity, and as washed in the blood, and having right now eternal life in christ...

    That is what the Bible states, did Ellen White get another view from a revelation from God, that he now changed his mind, or?
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Rebel asks and interesting question and so adding it here --

     
  6. vooks

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    Who taught investigative judgement for 1900 years before EGW?
     
  7. BobRyan

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    2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".


    [FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.



    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]
     
  8. BobRyan

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    [FONT=&quot]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]

    Dan 7
    “I watched till thrones were put in place,
    And the Ancient of Days was seated;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
    His throne was a fiery flame,
    Its wheels a burning fire;
    10A fiery stream issued
    And came forth from before Him.
    A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
    Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
    The court was seated,
    And the books were opened.


    And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

    Dan 7
    23 “Thus he said:
    ‘The fourth beast shall be
    A fourth kingdom on earth,
    Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
    And shall devour the whole earth,
    Trample it and break it in pieces.
    24 The ten horns are ten kings
    Who shall arise from this kingdom.
    And another shall rise after them;
    He shall be different from the first ones,
    And shall subdue three kings.
    25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
    Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
    And shall intend to change times and law.
    Then the saints shall be given into his hand
    For a time and times and half a time.

    26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
    And they shall take away his dominion,
    To consume and destroy it forever.

    27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
    And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
    Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
    His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
     
  9. vooks

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    Yes BobRyan,
    And the Bible said this ONLY in the 19th century
     
  10. BobRyan

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    I am curious how it is that Dan 7 only came into existence in the 19th century in your mind.

    How do you imagine that happened?
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    You are in error regarding this passage, as your are blind to the truth that NONE who stand before jesus are being judged by him as to keeping salvation or not, but as to if they are to have eternal rewards for good works done in his name!

    Paul demolished your views in Romans 8, as since it is God himself who justifies us, and he cannot reject those whom Christ died for, how can we be under the ole SDA "inverstigative judgement?"
     
  12. BobRyan

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    You have provided your preference while ignoring almost every verse in the chapter ... every detail IN the text.

    Is that because your view does not survive the chapter??

    In 2Cor 5 it is BOTH good AND evil that is being judged - not "just good deeds".

    In Romans 2 it is BOTH the heaven, and the hell outcomes that are being explained - not just the heaven outcome.


    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".


    [FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.



    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]



    The point remains.

    in Christ,

    Biob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    And so far you have not explained how it is that you imagined Dan 7 to only come into being in the 19th century.

     
  14. vooks

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    You have been rabid in quoting Moody on the sabbath thread.
    One Baptist has quoted reformers on another thread. So history is not foreign to SDAs. Ellen White herself plagiarized and borrowed extensively from history. So why you suddenly shy away from history is beyond me

    Could you show me anybody who taught investigative Judgement before Ellen White?

    If you know not of anybody just say so

    Thank you
     
    #14 vooks, May 12, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2015
  15. BobRyan

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    And so far you have not explained how it is that you imagined Dan 7 to only come into being in the 19th century.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    [FONT=&quot]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]

    Dan 7
    “I watched till thrones were put in place,
    And the Ancient of Days was seated;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
    His throne was a fiery flame,
    Its wheels a burning fire;
    10A fiery stream issued
    And came forth from before Him.
    A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
    Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
    The court was seated,
    And the books were opened.


    And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

    Dan 7
    23 “Thus he said:
    ‘The fourth beast shall be
    A fourth kingdom on earth,
    Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
    And shall devour the whole earth,
    Trample it and break it in pieces.
    24 The ten horns are ten kings
    Who shall arise from this kingdom.
    And another shall rise after them;
    He shall be different from the first ones,
    And shall subdue three kings.
    25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
    Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
    And shall intend to change times and law.
    Then the saints shall be given into his hand
    For a time and times and half a time.

    26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
    And they shall take away his dominion,
    To consume and destroy it forever.

    27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
    And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
    Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
    His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’



    Still waiting for you to provide some insightful response to the post.

    After all - was it not you who invented this idea of Dan 7 coming into existence in the 19th century?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. vooks

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    BobRyan,
    Daniel predates Christ by centuries but could you at the very least share with the board existence of Investigtive Judgement before Ellen White or admit it is a NEW DOCTRINE she conjured up and then task me to refute it, something I can easily do?

    Your refusal to answer such a simple question points to your conflicted mind. You know too well NOBODY before EGW taught Investigative Judgement. Nowadays Adventism is dropping the term Investigative Judgement, it is pre-advent Judgement, or pre-advent heavenly forensic audit.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Each time the key details of the Investigative Judgment doctrine are pointed to in the text of Dan 7 -- we get nonsensical posts as if Ellen White wrote Daniel 7

    hint: Daniel 7 existed before Ellen White

    So then back to "The Bible" for the Investigative Judgment details that we find IN the text.

    ====================================

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    [FONT=&quot]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]

    Dan 7
    “I watched till thrones were put in place,
    And the Ancient of Days was seated;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
    His throne was a fiery flame,
    Its wheels a burning fire;
    10A fiery stream issued
    And came forth from before Him.
    A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
    Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
    The court was seated,
    And the books were opened.


    And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

    Dan 7
    23 “Thus he said:
    ‘The fourth beast shall be
    A fourth kingdom on earth,
    Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
    And shall devour the whole earth,
    Trample it and break it in pieces.
    24 The ten horns are ten kings
    Who shall arise from this kingdom.
    And another shall rise after them;
    He shall be different from the first ones,
    And shall subdue three kings.
    25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
    Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
    And shall intend to change times and law.
    Then the saints shall be given into his hand
    For a time and times and half a time.

    26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
    And they shall take away his dominion,
    To consume and destroy it forever.

    27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
    And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
    Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
    His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
     
  18. vooks

    vooks
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    SDAs are terribly embarrassed that NOBODY anywhere taught Investigative Judgement before EGW. The dumb ones take this 'originality' as a mark of inspiration while the half-intelligent ones know EGW was a fake.

    Now, let's look at Daniel
     
  19. vooks

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    Daniel 8:10-12 (KJV)
    And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


    BobRyan,
    Walk me through this verse
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Daniel 7 -- the Investigative Judgment

    Did you want to walk through this ??

    Why keep avoiding the very text I keep claiming is the clearest support for the Judgment future - Judgment pre-Advent - Judgment with myriads and myriads in the courtoorm, judgment that concludes before the 2nd Advent??

    Why so devoted to avoid the text??

    ============================

    Dan 7
    “I watched till thrones were put in place,
    And the Ancient of Days was seated;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
    His throne was a fiery flame,
    Its wheels a burning fire;
    10A fiery stream issued
    And came forth from before Him.
    A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
    Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
    The court was seated,
    And the books were opened.


    And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

    Dan 7
    23 “Thus he said:
    ‘The fourth beast shall be
    A fourth kingdom on earth,
    Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
    And shall devour the whole earth,
    Trample it and break it in pieces.
    24 The ten horns are ten kings
    Who shall arise from this kingdom.
    And another shall rise after them;
    He shall be different from the first ones,
    And shall subdue three kings.
    25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
    Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
    And shall intend to change times and law.
    Then the saints shall be given into his hand
    For a time and times and half a time.

    26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
    And they shall take away his dominion,
    To consume and destroy it forever.

    27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
    And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
    Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
    His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
     

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