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Featured Investigative Judgement

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by vooks, May 9, 2015.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And as for "more detail" regarding what is going on in that Daniel 7 judgment - we had this

    ==============

     
    #21 BobRyan, May 13, 2015
  2. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Ok
    Where is investigative judgement in Daniel 7?
     
    #22 vooks, May 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2015
  3. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Sorry, repeated post
     
    #23 vooks, May 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2015
  4. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    My brother,
    I was looking for evidence of existence of Investigative Judgement before Ellen White and from your dithering, it is clear there is none.

    Fair enough. I assume this 'nugget' was reserved for the 'remnant' and totally hidden from any other generation.

    Now,
    Kindly explain to me what part of Daniel 7:10,26-27 is a judgement of believers
     
    #24 vooks, May 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2015
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Good question - let's notice the details - highlighted

     
    #25 BobRyan, May 14, 2015
  6. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    BobRyan,
    I see books opened,court seated not unlike Revelation 20:12.
    Question is, what in this text points you to the saints being the subjects of this judgement?
     
    #26 vooks, May 14, 2015
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Dan 7:21-22 NKJV
    21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.




    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".


    [FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
    7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
    9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.


    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]
     
    #27 BobRyan, May 14, 2015
  8. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    WHO/WHAT was judged in favor of the saints ?

    You do well to share as many verses as possible about judgement and I don't recall disputing this, but they really muddy the issue. Go back to Daniel for now and tell me who/what was judged in favor of the saints.

    Selah!
     
    #28 vooks, May 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2015
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Read the text.

    In Romans 2 we have the saints going to heaven - and the lost going to hell and the future gospel judgment of Rom 2:16 - future to Romans 2 -- future to the days of Paul.

    Dan 7 affirms the same future judgment - and points to it being before the 2nd coming.

    Details of what they are doing in that judgment are described by Paul in Romans 2 -- when it takes place and the fact that it ends before the 2nd coming is described in Dan 7.
     
    #29 BobRyan, May 14, 2015
  10. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Daniel talks of Judgement in favor of the saints. Nothing says the saints are being judged there. You are reading that into the text.

    Here is your fickle thinking;
    1. There is judgement in Daniel 7 in favor of the saints
    2. Saints will be judged at some point

    CONCLUSION
    Daniel 7 judgement is judgement of the saints!

    The judgement in Daniel 7 is of the wicked kingdoms including the small horn, their judgement being their cutting off. Why is it in favor of the saints? They were being persecuted by the wicked forces and this comes to an end

    Just about EVERY commentary I have ever laid my hands on reckons the judgement on Daniel 7 to be that of the wicked powers and not the saints. And this is why at no time NOBODY NOWHERE taught investigative judgement before EGW.

    Of course generally nobody thought of relativity before Einstein but that is science not theology. With the same vigor you quote Moody and Darby, please dig into pre-SDA commentaries on Daniel 7 and see how they understood these verse.

    Daniel 7:10 (KJV)
    A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
    Judgement is set, books opened

    Daniel asks somebody (an angel?) for an explanation
    16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things

    19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others.....

    21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom

    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth,......

    25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end


    So the judgement of v10,21, and 25 are all the same; the destruction of the FOURTH beast, quite favorable to the saints because he terrorized them, was allowed to.

    You are right to call it pre-advent because it happens BEFORE Christ returns but totally off to ascribe it to the saints. It is the beasts being judged not saints:thumbs:
     
    #30 vooks, May 14, 2015
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    hint - 'Judgment passed in favor of' -- cannot happen unless you are a subject of the judgment.

    And that point is also validated here --

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".


    [FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
    7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
    9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.


    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]
     
    #31 BobRyan, May 14, 2015
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There are no souls going to heaven here. The chapter is addressed to unbelieving Jews and a warning is given to them about their eternity. They are hypocritical in their lifestyle and they better make it right. The privileges that they have as Jews are not going to count for anything when they stand before God. This is simply a warning. You, again, are reading more into this passage then is really there.
     
    #32 DHK, May 14, 2015
  13. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Think
    The beasts were judged not the saints.
    Who apart from Ellen White in all history saw the saints being judged from this verse?

    By the way, is this the same event as Revelation 20:12?
     
    #33 vooks, May 14, 2015
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
    7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
    9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.


    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]

    One might imagine that - until they read the verses just listed.




    [FONT=&quot]7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]
     
    #34 BobRyan, May 14, 2015
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    hint - 'Judgment passed in favor of' -- cannot happen unless you are a subject of the judgment.

    Dan 7:21-22 NKJV
    21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
     
    #35 BobRyan, May 14, 2015
  16. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    BobRyan you are not thinking.
    1. Nobody nowhere in this world remotely sees or ever saw saints being judged in Daniel 7 because the saints were not judged
    2. Judgement 'in favor of' means just that; it benefitted them, no more persecution

    BobRyan,
    Are you a saint?
    Will this judgement be in your favor?
    Is this judgement the same as Revelation 20?
     
    #36 vooks, May 14, 2015
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Until you read the actual Bible -

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Dan 7:21-22 NKJV
    21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.


    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    2 Cor 5:10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".


    [FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
    7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
    9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.


    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/FONT]


    Judgment in favor of vs opposed to - is shown by Paul in Roman 2.

    Obviously - as all know - to have judgment passed in your favor you have to be subject of that judgment - as even 2Cor 5:10 and Romans 2 point out.

    The point remains.

    irrefutable.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #37 BobRyan, May 15, 2015
  18. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Puny sectarian bias;
    1 Judgement in favor of the saints
    2. Saints will be judged

    Conclusion
    Saints were judged
     
    #38 vooks, May 15, 2015
  19. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    #39 vooks, May 15, 2015
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Every now and then some bit of truth gets into your post -- I find that amazing.
     
    #40 BobRyan, May 15, 2015
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