Irish Prime minister agrees with President Bush on gay civil unions

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by NaasPreacher (C4K), Apr 3, 2006.

  1. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Don't have a link yet, because I just saw it on the news, but Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern annonunced today that he fully supports legalising gay civil unions.

    Since he is also socialist in his economic policies about the only thing they disagree on is the war in Iraq.
     
  2. emeraldctyangel

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    Hmmm are you sure?

    Everything that I read states that Bush is an opponent of same sex unions and in fact, broke with the party in 2004.

    Maybe I read your post wrong?
     
  3. billwald

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    "Since he is also socialist in his economic policies about the only thing they disagree on is the war in Iraq."

    Non sequitur.
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    He did break with the party - they opposed same sex civil unions and he supported them.

    http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041026-121303-1337r.htm
     
  5. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    No actually Bill, the point was to show that President Bush has a lot in common with one of Europe's most liberal leaders.
     
  6. Hope of Glory

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    I also agree that it should be up to the states. If one state wants to legalize same sex unions, another should be permitted to make it a crime. We are supposed to be 50 autonomous states with a federal government with very little power, except in certain areas such as the military and interstate commerce.

    However, same sex civil unions are already legal. Any two adults can form any sort of union they want in a civil court already. I still haven't seen Bush come out in favor of same sex "marriage".
     
  7. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    And, like Kerry, he never did.

    They were twins on the subject of same sex civil unions and marriage.
     
  8. Enoch

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    Do you support gay civil unions? Is this good or bad news for you since you live in Ireland?

    Please explain?

    Why the attempt to connect President Bush with Ahern? I honestly do not follow Irish politics. Or for that matter know where you stand politically.

    Your link (not the link you said you were posting) is pre-election, perhaps an attempt to gain political ground on a heated issue by leaving it up to each state. Do you know the date of the actual quote? Old news… I have yet to see current comments by President Bush that coincide.

    You mean flip flop Kerry.
    Twins, I think not. John Kerry opposed a constitutional ban on same sex marriage – President Bush supported a ban on same sex marriage.

    Following is the full text of President Bush's speech supporting a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, Tuesday, Feb. 24, 2004:
     
  9. Daisy

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    And securing individual civil rights as per the 14th Amendment, section 1 (linkie).

    Well, legal as in not illegal, but not legal as in recognised by the State courts - as inheritence, hospital visits, healthcare decisions, etc.

    Is "gay marriage" really a bigger threat to "regular marriage" than infidelity and divorce?
     
  10. Enoch

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    C4K???


    Do you support gay civil unions? Is this good or bad news for you since you live in Ireland?

    Please explain?

    Why the attempt to connect President Bush with Ahern? I honestly do not follow Irish politics. Or for that matter know where you stand politically.

    Your link (not the link you said you were posting) is pre-election, perhaps an attempt to gain political ground on a heated issue by leaving it up to each state. Do you know the date of the actual quote? Old news… I have yet to see current comments by President Bush that coincide.

    You mean flip flop Kerry.
    Twins, I think not. John Kerry opposed a constitutional ban on same sex marriage – President Bush supported a ban on same sex marriage.

    Following is the full text of President Bush's speech supporting a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, Tuesday, Feb. 24, 2004:
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  11. Enoch

    Enoch
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    C4K???


    Do you support gay civil unions? Is this good or bad news for you since you live in Ireland?

    Please explain?

    Why the attempt to connect President Bush with Ahern? I honestly do not follow Irish politics. Or for that matter know where you stand politically.

    Your link (not the link you said you were posting) is pre-election, perhaps an attempt to gain political ground on a heated issue by leaving it up to each state. Do you know the date of the actual quote? Old news… I have yet to see current comments by President Bush that coincide.

    You mean flip flop Kerry.
    Twins, I think not. John Kerry opposed a constitutional ban on same sex marriage – President Bush supported a ban on same sex marriage.

    Following is the full text of President Bush's speech supporting a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, Tuesday, Feb. 24, 2004:
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  12. Enoch

    Enoch
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    Just noticed the double post, oops.

    Anyway C4K still waiting...
     
  13. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Sorry - you'll have to keep waiting. R/L is very busy and I don't have time to re-enter this debate.

    It is clear, Bush and Kerry both opposed gay marriage and both favoured the legalisation of gay civil unions, in that regard they fall in line with the most liberal European leaders.
     
  14. emeraldctyangel

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    That is what I was looking at Enoch. Shrugs.

    Im with HopeofGlory on this one. What one state says is legal, another can certainly say it is illegal.

    If you want everything you own to go to your cat, just set up a will that says that. Why is that so hard?

    I dont feel anyone needs a special category of rights. The ones we have now seem to cover quite nicely. I think the same sex union proponents want people to be forced into accepting them in a more social way. And some people arent going to do that, as it does go directly against their religious beliefs. I dont think Christians should condone their behavior, but I dont feel they should be jailed for it either. Act in a civilized manner and become a contributing part of the community. Fairly simple.
     
  15. Daisy

    Daisy
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    Does that include hetreosexual married couples? We have special rights:</font>
    • Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.</font>
    • Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.</font>
    • Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.</font>
    • Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.</font>
    • Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.</font>
    • Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.</font>
    • Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.</font>
    • Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.</font>
    • Receiving public assistance benefits.
      Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.</font>
    • Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.</font>
    • Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.</font>
    • Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.</font>
    • Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.</font>
    • Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.</font>
    • Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.</font>
    • Making burial or other final arrangements.</font>
    • Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.</font>
    • Applying for joint foster care rights.</font>
    • Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.</font>
    • Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.</font>
    • Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."</font>
    • Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.</font>
    • Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.</font>
    • Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.</font>
    • Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.</font>
    • Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).</font>
    • Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).</font>
    • Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.</font>
    • Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.</font>
    • Obtaining domestic violence protection orders.</font>
    • Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.</font>
    • Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.</font>
    Thanks to Nolo.com (linky) for their list of marriage benefits.

    Yes, if you're special; too bad if you're not.

    Could be.
    Equal, not special, rights for all couples?

    Should church marriage be separate from civil marriage?
     
  16. ASLANSPAL

    ASLANSPAL
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    Should church marriage be separate from civil marriage?

    Excellent question and the one that should frame the debate.

    Yes

    but I would be a little more harsh and say the marriage word or brand belongs to Christendom and churches that do not agree with gay unions can discriminate if they so choose and it is also
    okay for Christians to organize politically within the framework of Romans and also put a stop to gay unions federal to state but then {and here's the rub others can organize as well}to allow gay unions for equal civil rights(btw thanks for the list very informative} I think gays have an upward struggle since they are a minority and always will be because imho they are born the way they are. If they choose to go the civil union route I think they win ..but to ask the church or the majority of Christendom to allow marriage within the church is a long shot. Within a civil government they pay taxes and support the defense of our country and also die in her defense it is hard not to give them equal rights within a secular framework but again let me disclaim one is separate from the church.(and if church people do not like that in the secular framework then they can work to change it). They must go fight the government ideal of equality of those who pay taxes and fight in her defense..that I think they will lose because it will come off as very intolerant.

    bush meant to raise this during the election cycle to get people inflamed..which he did ..then just drop it ...which he did..get ready for him to use it again ...will people actually demand he follow through or do they just like to get inflamed so as to scapegoat.

    My example has always been been .if a gay couple were to burst into a church and demand they be married they should and would be ushered out ..if a Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson was to burst into a courthouse and demand the government stop allowing contractual unions of gays....then they should be ushered our of the courthouse.
     
  17. emeraldctyangel

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    Does that include hetreosexual married couples? We have special rights:</font>
    • Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.</font>
    • Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.</font>
    • Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.</font>
    • Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.</font>
    • Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.</font>
    • Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.</font>
    • Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.</font>
    • Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.</font>
    • Receiving public assistance benefits.
      Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.</font>
    • Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.</font>
    • Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.</font>
    • Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.</font>
    • Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.</font>
    • Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.</font>
    • Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.</font>
    • Making burial or other final arrangements.</font>
    • Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.</font>
    • Applying for joint foster care rights.</font>
    • Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.</font>
    • Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.</font>
    • Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."</font>
    • Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.</font>
    • Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.</font>
    • Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.</font>
    • Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.</font>
    • Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).</font>
    • Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).</font>
    • Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.</font>
    • Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.</font>
    • Obtaining domestic violence protection orders.</font>
    • Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.</font>
    • Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.</font>
    Thanks to Nolo.com (linky) for their list of marriage benefits.

    Yes, if you're special; too bad if you're not.

    Could be.
    Equal, not special, rights for all couples?

    Should church marriage be separate from civil marriage?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Nope. I was talking about Gay rights. You can claim to be agrieved if someone harrasses you because you are protected under the Constitution, but not because of sexual preference. You can apply for a home loan and not be turned down because of gender, race, or religion, but none of that covers being homosexual.

    Same sex unions are a few steps away from that. You overstepped.

    Income tax laws are written to encourage what is considered a productive society. Just like the government gave me a rebate with the hopes I would spend it (stimulating the ecomomy some), it hopes that by giving me and my husband a tax break, that we might buy a bigger home, have children to put into schools, and do whatever we do to perpetuate American ideals.

    Your links are fine, but I here again is my Christian values saying...hmm homosexuality is against God's will, so I dont feel bad that you get no quarter when it comes to income taxes or you cant have Veteran's benefits. That is just the way it is.

    Sorry I cant get appalled that you cant visit your same sex love in jail or get a visa for your same sex alien love.

    If you visit your lawyer, you might find that you can pretty much put any and all of your desires into a trust should something happen to you, and designate anyone in the world to be the executor.

    And domestic violence protection is harder to obtain if both the offender and victim are same sex? You cant beat each other up no matter who you are or what team you bat for. Its called assault and battery. Press charges like everyone else for pete's sake.

    Same sex unions are already legally planning for divorce? Oh great. Sounds like something we should all change our lives over. Or not.

    You dont have to be special to enjoy God's love. Just have to believe what He says. Not part of it, all of it.
     
  18. emeraldctyangel

    emeraldctyangel
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    A-pal. Im not sure that it is all that great an idea to go around changing the word that the church stands on just to fit certain purposes. I hope that this is just conjecture on your part.
     
  19. ASLANSPAL

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    No its not conjecture...it is how it will politically play out. With both sides getting what they need.

    E said :Your links are fine, but I here again is my Christian values saying...hmm homosexuality is against God's will, so I dont feel bad that you get no quarter when it comes to income taxes or you cant have Veteran's benefits. That is just the way it is.

    not everyone agrees with that and I feel the tide is turning with the advent of science and research in genetics. Is it really the way it is or is that just for the time being ...I see it as changing or at least compromise so people in the gay community who pay taxes and die in wars for our nation are given equal rights. Again the church can still discriminate as for the secular government it will be more difficult to do so. imho

    So should percentage of the population stop paying taxes or have a tax revolt since they are not represented as equal in a secular government?
     
  20. Daisy

    Daisy
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    Hey, good debating, eac! [​IMG]

    Seriously, you made your points effectively without invective - good job.
     

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