Irresistable Grace

Here is your problem though (which I keep trying to get your to reckon with and you keep missing it). Rom 8:29-30 says that those who are called are justified and then glorified. There is no room in that verse for someone to be called but not justified and glorified. That is why I asked if you are a univeralist. Of course, I know you are not but the point is that you have no answer for this text of Scripture unless you see more than one call. I agree with you about a call that goes out to everyone. But that cannot be the call in Rom 8 because the call in Rom 8 brings the results of justified and glorified.

Do you see how your position cannot deal with the text?

 

Knowing that the General Call in the Clavinist system is just a sham..It's the Effectual call that's the key that's the one that is supposed to be the "Irrisistable" one...

Here's a thought..Why the "two" Calls?? why didnt God just give the effectual call to everyone if it's his will that everyone be saved?? (which it is) Because really in the System of Calvin..it's not God's will that all men be saved..(even thouh that's what the BIBLE says)

If everyone where to get the effectual call then that would result in a NON-ELECT person being regenerated and lord knows the Calvinist can't have a regenerated reprobate being saved..A person whom Christ did not die for.

Larry said this:

However the scriptures dont say what he says they do.

They say..MOREOVER whom he did predestinate, Them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I see nothing in here about ALL he calls..that's someone putting their own spin on things to make the Bible say what it doesn't. It dosen't say ALL one time in this scripture.

You're right it doesn't say that.

BUT Of course you can be called and not justified and not Glorified..that would be a person who has heard the calling and REJECTED IT.

[ January 13, 2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

shilo,

What do you think the writers of the New Testament had in mind when they wrote these things?

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4)

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (1 Peter 2:8)

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" (2 Peter 2:12)

 

Pastor Larry,

I tried to answer your question by the previous post.

Do you think 'rich young ruler' in Matthew 19:20-22; Mark 10:21 and Luke 18:22 was called by Jesus Christ to be among His elect?

I think Jesus call to him was a genuine plea to obey Him so he might obtain Heaven. I am sure you have preached from this text. In my opinion, he disobeyed Jesus direction for his life and was undoubtedly lost forever, not unless He did not tell us of his later reconsideration of the matter. The Bible says that ' . . . he went away sorrowful because he had great riches.'

I believe there is one call of the Holy Spirit to sinners. We believe an honest call was given and a serious answer of rejection of that call returned to our Lord. This is one of the account offered in the Bible that we suggest is Resistible Grace.

 

Primitive, You already believe what you want about the verses you posted. All,(these verses) you believe, without a doubt, are proof texts that God Ordained in eternity these men for hell.

1st off this does not say that they were predestinated in eternity to condemnation. so right off the bat you have to ASSUME that's what it's talking about.

God's ordination Never eliminates Free will. You and I are ordained that we should walk in good works..

"For we are his workmanship, created in Chrsit Jesus unto good works, which God Hath Before Ordained that we should walk in them"(Eph 2:10)

but do you walk in good works all the time? No you don't, yet That's God's ordination..

SO ordination to this condemnation....A man who will deny the Blood of Jesus Chirst, who will deny the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Is ordained to be condemned..But No man has to do this..no man has to come into this world and has to be the one to do this..The Ordination is if you deny the Lord Jesus Christ..Your Damned..THat is the ordination.

You get into Jesus Christ your ordained to become like him..Predestinated to be conformed to his image Rom 8:29

So again here..this verse doesn't say that they were appoined in eternity or predestined in any way shape or form..you have to ASSUME that's what it says in order to try to make scripture line up with doctrine.

Once again you are ASSUMING that "Made" was Made before the foundation of the world in eternity..you are again trying to force scripture to line up with your doctrine.

[ January 13, 2003, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

A quick thought about these verses:

How about cross-referencing this passage to see what is being talked about?
The stone: Gen. 49:24; Psa.118:22, Isa 28:16
The stumbling: Isa. 8:14; Matt 21:44; Rom 9:33
The disobedience is defined in context as unbelief: Peter 2:7
just as obedeience was defined as belief in Rom. 10:16.
Whosoever Believeth is found in the same passages as the stumbling stone isa 28:16; rom 9:33 peter 2:6
No man was appointed to stumble unless he did not believe Rom 9:32

NOTE: There is always a REASON for people being "Appointed to destruction"

1st off are beasts forordained to be taken and destroyed before the foundation of the world by a sovereign, eternal decree? and when a beast is taken and destroyed does that mean that it goes to hell??

The contrasts of these men with the beasts "made to be taken and destroyed" is finished at the end of the verse "shall utterly perish in their own corruption"

if you look back in jude you'll see a similar description of False teachers "but these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves..

Please notice in both cases that the "Corruption" was their own doing "there own corruption" "they corrupt themselves"

God never makes a man in a reprobate condition; men are always reprobate because of something they do. No man deserves to be destroyed unless he earns it. The very next verse in Peter should make this clear..these men "shall receive the reward of unrightousness" peter 2:13

[ January 13, 2003, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

ordain - to prepare before, to make ready beforehand

God did prepare before and make ready beforehand His people to walk in good works, and they do when they are led by His grace to do so. God prepared His people to walk in good works, and they are called elsewhere in the Scriptures
"vessels of mercy... afore prepared unto glory," (Romans 9:23) I do not see the supposed contradiction. Why did the Jews reject Jesus Christ? Was it the purpose of God or not? Are you saved by chance? "But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." (John 12:37-40) I know you will do all sorts of theological flips to get around the teaching of Jesus in that text, but it all comes back to the sovereignty of God. "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. (Romans 9:18) I am thankful unto God that it was His purpose to visit the Gentiles and call out a people for His name, and I have a precious hope that I am one of them, "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his." According to Arminianism, why would God "will" to harden any since it is His will that all "accept" Him? The Scriptures teach no such thing.

[ January 14, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

well Primitave..I think you have done a pretty good job of that yourself...

Well search the scriptures..Why Does God Harden peoples heart?? what are the reasons.. I know one you won't find..predestination.

I can't think of anywhere in the Scriptures where the word "Accept" is used in saying that God would have all men to "Accept" him..However Scripture does teach that it is God's WILL that all be saved.

"and this is the WILL of him that sent me , that EVERYONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: I will raise him up at the last day."

For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Those are just a few..

It's God's will that All men be saved..He did die for ALL men. unless your saying that The Bible lied when it said

And he is the propitiation for OUR sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD

You refuse to believe that fact..you have eyes to see and ears to hear..but you don't see and you don't hear...

[ January 14, 2003, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

True, God Is Sovereign.

However the problem here is That Fidel Castro is Sovereign, Saddam Hussein is Sovereign. the Pope is sovereign..Hilter Stalin and Mao were sovereign..

And When you, Primitive, speak of God being sovereign What your really mean is arbitrariness. The end result of this is a God who could change, by pass, or ignore his own laws because of his so-called sovereignty.

Authur Pink describes this

"but though his creatures are bound by the Laws he has prescribed them, god himself is not. God is under no law, but is absolutly sovereign...God possesses supreme authority, and when he pleases sets aside his own laws, or issues new ones contrary to those given previously...Learn then, that God is Bound by no law"(An Exposition of Hebrews pg 737)

This is why in your eyes God Could Foreordain in eternity anyone yet uncreated to hell or anyone to eternal life as well..for no other reason but for his sovereign good pleasure..

so when it comes to salvaition, Herman Hoeksema puts it "God Determines soverignly who shall be saved and who shall not be saved"

And so it boils down to what you mean is that God Abitrarily choses certain ones for salvation or damnation at a whim.

however the Bible paints a rather different picture of God than that of you or Pink or Hoeksema.

God's first and formost attribute is holiness. and As I'm sure you know, the most vile, profane, bloody, wicked dictator could be sovereign-yet unholy. God is declared to be absolute holiness..

The Bible says that the Lord Is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works (psa.145:17)

Because God Is Holy he exercises his Sovereignty only in ways consistant with his Holiness.

What you have done is to Exalt the sovereignty of God above all his other attributes.. what I want to know is what kind of man would do such a thing..unless he had a theological axe to grind??

[ January 14, 2003, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

But you didn't, as I pointed out.

yes

Yes, I think so too.

But you still haven't dealt with the text. Rom 8 says that those whom he called, he justified and glorified. Now how did the rich young ruler get called but not justified?

Shilo,

You have ignored what the text says. YOu quote it and then ignore it. Notice it again. Those who he predestined, he called; those whom he called, he justified; those whom he justified, he will glorify. It clearly says that the ones who are called are the ones who are justified. It does not say that some of hte ones called will be justified.

Now, you have someone getting out between the call and teh justification. Scripture will not allow that with respect to the call that is being talked about here. Your long posts will not conceal the fact that you haven't dealt with the text.

 

Ok I want to get back to the issues of the 2 calls - what issues the call?

See to my mind it is the Word - be it the Word of God - or Word the God

And to my understanding of Scripture the Word never returns void - And this is what I see happening with the General call - the call you admit no one will be saved with - the call that is powerless.

And Primitive Baptist - ordained unto good works is not a temporary thing only happening when grace wins out over sin - It is the process of sanctification - of making us like Christ that is supposed to be a continous process not a stop and go

Saints sin - Otherwise I have not met a Christian in my life - and this sin resists the grace of God, but in the miraculous nature of grace where sin abounds it will come back and abound more. Grace is resistible - the Spirit can be grieved - the gifts of the Spirit are under our control

I could go on - but time restrains

 

The problem with this is that the Bible plainly contradicts it. Jesus, the Word, clearly DID speak to huge masses of people, and most of them did not believe. Using your logic the Wrod came back void.

See the probelm is you start out asking who issues the call, and answer : The Word.

But the Word issues the call, the Word is not the call though. And for your logic to hold internally you have to make that equation.

To say that the word issues a call is nt the same thing as the word being a call.

 

Not what but who ... the Holy Spirit is the effecting agent in the call (2 Thess 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2). He works in conjunction with the message about Christ (Rom 10:14-17; 2 Thess 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Thess 1:13, etc.

[quopte]And to my understanding of Scripture the Word never returns void - And this is what I see happening with the General call - the call you admit no one will be saved with - the call that is powerless.[/quote]But you assume the only purpose of the Word is to save. Scripture teaches that the word also hardens. The parable of the sower in Matt 13 is a very difficult passage for people of your persuasion to answer. It clearly states the Christ used parables to conceal so that people would not believe. The word does not return without accomplishing its purpose. But we must realize what its purpose is.

I think you are missing the point here. It is about the effectual call of the Spirit. Irresistable grace is not a good choice of terms, as virtually all acknowledge.

 

I believe the Word of God is the basis of the general call to all who hear the 'good news.' The Holy Spirit attends the Word, the message of salvation. To those who believe Him He ministers everlasting life. The Word of God does not return void in the sense that even those who turn from Him, will later at the White Throne Judgment, be evaluated by Him and be sent to everlasting punishment.

To reject the message of salvation is in actuality to reject not only the Son, but the Spirit of God and the Father. In either case the Word and the Spirit and the Father have performed Their ministry to all who hear the 'good news.'

 

God created us for His pleasure according to the book of Revelation. He can dispose of His creation as he pleases. It is His prerogative. Shall we contend with the Creator and charge Him with unrighteousness? "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Romans 9:18-21) Jesus said, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40) That certainly is the will of God. Verse 39 is also the will of God: "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." Verse 37 is also the the will of God: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." They harmonize perfectly. Like Pastor Larry said, your long posts will not conceal the fact that you have not dealt with the issues at hand. GOD IS SOVEREIGN! What about the verses in John 12 that I mentioned? Let me guess, the Jews hardened their hearts first and God just hardened it again?

[ January 14, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

Hi Primitive Baptist;

A quote from you;

_________________________________________________

Why did the Jews reject Jesus Christ?

_________________________________________________

The Jews rejected Christ because they thought that they were to educated to fall for the foolishness of Christ.The Pharasee's and the Saducee's all thought they knew the scriptures so well that no Galalean was going to prove them wrong.Beside they thought that nothing good could come from a low life place such as this.They didn't see psalms 22 as prophecy they must have thought it a fairy tale.You see they allowed others to tell them what scripture was saying and didn't check it out for them selves.I'm sorry that they didn't recognize Christ as the Son of God . But the shame is on them.

Romanbear

Peace

 

Amen! However, there are two sides of this coin. Are you saved by chance? Was it the purpose of God to visit the Gentiles and call out a people for His name or was it a desperate measure because of His rejection by the Jews? If it was the purpose of God to call the Gentiles, it must have also been the purpose of God for the Jews to reject Jesus Christ as the promised Seed. Think about it...

I never claimed that sanctification is a stop-and-go process. God does not save us by His grace and give us up to the inclinations of our flesh. "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3) The grace of God is necessary to maintain good works. "Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13:21)

[ January 14, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

So now you both are admitting again that God is active in the damnation process. Before, you were denying it saying that it was entirely man's sin. (God would not have to do anything in order to condemn).

 

[Duplicate post deleted. When I clicked post the first time, it didn't appear to do anything]

[ January 14, 2003, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]