Irresistable Grace

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by calvin4me, Jun 5, 2004.

  1. calvin4me

    calvin4me
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    Whenever I think of this doctrine, I imagine a father and his little boy walking down the street. The boy is bouncing a ball, then suddently it rolls into the middle of the street. He begins to dart after it, unmindful of the oncoming cars and trucks; his father, instead of reasoning and pleading with him not to run into traffic, extends his arm out and grabs the boy and pulls him back just before a bus splatters him. (Probably driven by an Arminian -just KIDDING!!!)

    In the same way, I imagine my loving Father grabbing me and pulling me towards Him right before I walk into the eternal inferno.
    Can I be dragged into heaven against my own will?
    If He can cause nations and thier armies to fall against thier own will, then why not?

    "For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?" (Isa.14:27)

    Can I resist His grace?
    "Who then is able to stand AGAINST Me? Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him? Everything under heaven is MINE." (Job 40:10,11)

    We can be overpowered by hunger, fatigue, mental illness, old age, etc. Can we be overpowered by His Spirit?

    Sure there are a lot of Scriptures that show resistance against the Holy Spirit; but those who resisted, did they REALLY know God.
    When I feel the presence of God, I find that He is so infinitely beautiful, so wonderfully awe-inspiring...that I CAN'T resist Him.
     
  2. Skandelon

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    People who resist the Spirit as seen in Act 7:51 do so because of their own unwillingness to be saved, not because of God's unwillingness to save them.

    Matt. 23:37
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

    Notice that its the people's unwillingness that keeps them from being gathered by God, its not God's unwillingness to gather them.
     
  3. John Gilmore

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    Calvinism is a religion of doubt. Do I really know God? Am I really one of the elect?

    We resist Holy Spirit our entire life. Rom. 7:19 Satan desires to have us that he may sift us as wheat.Luke 22:31. We are instructed to give diligence to make our election and calling sure. II Peter 1:10. If Christ is become of no effect unto us, we are fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4

    But God's promises are sure. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Mark 16:16 We should cling to God's promises rather than a false doctrine of election.

    [ June 07, 2004, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  4. Michael52

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    Would the Father have to seek his elect? Just wondering.

    In Christ
    Michael
     
  5. Doubting Thomas

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    That is a good question.
     
  6. CalifLady

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    First may I say that I was an Arminian doctrined lady the first 14 years of my Christian life. And then I began to pray that the Lord would give me a huge love for Himself and His Word. Well, the way He has chosen to give me that love has been to allow me to see some of the sovereign God, sovereign in salvation, sovereign completely, totally. I can say, for me, that Calvinism is not a doctrine of doubt but a sweet doctrine that causes big faith and deep love for the Lord and His Word. There is no doubt, because I am saved by grace, I am assured of my salvation. And when folks are not saved it is because of their own hearts that choose to live for the world and reject God. Those folks don't have any doubt because they are doing just as they please. They don't even think about it for they live according to their flesh. God says no one can come to Jesus unless He first calls them, the elect. God has mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy. God's election is sure and has nothing to do with any person's good works it is simply for His pleasure and perhaps something that is not to be understood by our minds for our ways are not His ways. But, I know for sure that He can be trusted and He always does what is right.
    I can only speak for myself and tell my story and there is no doubt that the lord has shown me that He is sovereign, totally sovereign. It is such an awesome thing and I love to talk about it. *smile* I know that there is free will, but only after God has changed our hearts will we use our will to follow Jesus for God has said over and over no one comes to Jesus unless given a new heart by God. We can not put the cart before the horse...God calls then we choose to follow Jesus. How blessed I am to be shown His sovereign ways! It is only a few months since God has chosen to allow me to see and I have learned so much. What a blessing! What a mighty God we serve! WOW!
    Love in Christ....
    CalifLady
     
  7. Skandelon

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    Arminians don't disagree with this. Its a misconception to think that we do. God must change our hearts but the question is, "HOW?"

    Does He do it irresistably by a secret inward calling that is never expounded upon in scripture?

    Or

    Does He do it by the call of the gospel, which Paul calls the "power of God unto salvation?"

    The gospel's call is brought to us by a work of the Holy Spirit and its the only call expounded on in scripture, why would anyone assume that there is a second call without clear biblical support?
     
  8. Skandelon

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    Would the Father have to seek his elect? Just wondering.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry Michael, I guess the Calvinists aren't going to answer your question.

    As a former Calvinists I can presume that one might say that this passage is not literal as if God is looking for those who will choose to worship him, but instead that God is causing certain people to worship him and then seeking them??? I don't know.

    Its a good question. It doesn't make much sense for a author who believes God is the one who causes certain people to be worshippers to write that God is seeking true worshippers. It seems he would write, "God is causing such people to worship him."
     
  9. npetreley

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    Arminianism necessitates at least two calls, or two types of calls.

    Bible fact: "...those He called, He justified"

    Bibilical and obvious fact: "not everyone is justified"

    Arminian assertion: "God calls everyone"

    If the Arminian assertion is true, then there must be at least two calls or two types of calls. For the Bible says that those God calls, he also justifies. If the Arminian insists that those who are not justified are also called, then the Arminian must be referring to some other call.
     
  10. Doubting Thomas

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    Of course, in the Romans passage "those He called, He justified" is referring back to verse 28--those who love Him--so this doesn't necessarily mean two calls. It may merely that those who love God have answered the call, and are therefore justified and glorified. They are responding to God's call in love rather than in rejection.
     
  11. npetreley

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    That's an incredible stretch, but let's look at what you're claiming. You only mentioned one part of verse 28. The verse actually refers to "those who love God and are called according to His purpose".

    So if "those He called, He justified" refers only to those people in verse 28, then there are "others" for whom God does not work all things together for good. Those others are "those who do not love God and are not called according to His purpose".

    Now, even if you now read into that scripture something it does not explicitly say -- that they are "not called" because they don't love Him -- then you are still saying there are those who are not called. So either the Armininan must say not everyone is called, or that there is more than one (or one type of) call.
     
  12. CalifLady

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    Today I have been studying John chapter 4 thinking on the question on God seeking. In context we see Jesus talking with the Samaritan woman. It seems to me when Jesus gets to the point to tell her that the Father is seeking people that will worship Him in truth and in spirit. Because she went back to her village soon after this I am thinking that Jesus was telling her that the gods the Samaritans have worshiped were dead but after proving Himself to be the Mesiah to her now in verse 23 Jesus tells her that the Father indeed wants the Samaritans to worship Him in spirit and truth. And that is exactly what happened in verse 42 we see that they heard and believed. Actually the Samaritan woman evangelized her village as used by Jesus. And as we evangelize we are used by God to seek out believers as well.
    Thanks for the question..sure has given me much to consider today.
    CalifLady
     
  13. Skandelon

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    You're right there are two types of calls. The one that is answered and the one that is not. Paul is merely speaking about people who have answered the call here.
     
  14. massdak

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    You're right there are two types of calls. The one that is answered and the one that is not. Paul is merely speaking about people who have answered the call here. </font>[/QUOTE]that doesn't make sense &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;QUOTE]You're right there are two types of calls. The one that is answered and the one that is not.

    you are referring to some rejecting the same call. what is it that makes a person more willing to accept the call?

    choice? how lucky it is that some have a godly choice and some don't.
    this is how your therory falls.
     
  15. npetreley

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    I repeat...

    Bible fact: "...those He called, He justified"

    If Paul agreed with you, then he would have had to say "....of those He called, some were justifed". But that is not what it says. It says, "...those He predestined, He called and those He called, He justified".

    So the Arminian assertion: "God calls everyone" must be referring to some other call, because "THOSE He predestines, He calls, and those He calls, He justified" can have no other consequence but that there are those He does not predestine, those He does not call, and those He does not justify.
     
  16. Skandelon

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    And I repeat...

    Of those He called [who respond in faith], he justifies... is a possible and even likely interpretation. It's no different than when the scripture says "all men" and you interpret that to mean "all types of men" or "men from all nations."

    Notice that this sequence leaves out FAITH yet you and I believe that it IS involved in one way or another. We must ASSUME Paul's intent here. You assume that he means "all who were called [who were effectually caused to believe], were justified" and I assume that he means "all who were called [who chose to believe], were justified."

    We both make an assumption about the intent of Paul in this passage.
     
  17. npetreley

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    And I repeat...

    The sequence begins with "those He foreknew" which indicates "those with whom He had intimate relationship," not "those He knew in advance would choose to believe". The opposite of this is when Jesus says, "I never knew you", which cannot be interpreted as "I never knew you would not choose to believe".

    Now let's put your private addition back into the sequence and see what we get (your addition to scripture is in bold.

    What's wrong with this picture? Simple. It starts with those whom God foreknew. This MUST refer only to a subset of all human beings for at least two reasons:

    Now, of this subset of humanity, He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Those He predestined, He called. Now -- your addition suddenly produces yet ANOTHER subset! Of ALL of those He foreknew, predestined and called, only those who responded in faith got justified! For the rest, all that foreknowing, predestination and calling amounted to nothing. What an impotent god you have!

    I know you WANT to reach back to the previous verse and say that He foreknew them because they would love Him. But that previous verse DEFINES those who love him as those who are CALLED according to His purpose. In other words, those who love Him are CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE, not according to our choice.

    If you want a more obvious reason why faith is not mentioned here is because, from God's perspective of sovereignty, faith is not a pivot point anywhere in the sequence. If that sequence (foreknew-&gt;predestined-&gt;etc) pivoted anywhere on our choice to believe, then it would be necessary to add faith somewhere in the sequence. But it is not necessary, because it is a given assumption that God gives faith as a gift to those He calls (Ephesians 2:8). Mentioning faith in the sequence would be superfluous.
     
  18. Michael52

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    Makes me wonder why the Bible keeps on exhorting the necessity of faith. Or, is faith only necessary after we have been given faith. Hmmm....
     
  19. npetreley

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    Please don't quote my statement out of context. Of course faith is a necessary part of salvation (which is why it is given as a gift to the elect), but the mention of it was superfluous to the process of election Paul described because there is nothing in election that is conditional on man's response.

    That's why it says:

    Foreknew -&gt; predestined -&gt; called -&gt; justified -&gt; glorified.

    If man had any part in this process by having to decide whether or not to have faith, then faith would have been a necessary part of the sequence. It would have had to say one of these two things:

    Foreknew they would decide to have faith -&gt; predestined -&gt; called -&gt; justified -&gt; glorified.

    But it doesn't say that. The word "foreknew" depicts intimate love/friendship, not foreknowledge of what someone would do. A second problem this would pose for the Arminian is that this sequence would be saying that God only calls those whom He foreknows will have faith. But Arminians insist God calls everyone.

    So you only have one choice left to shove man's free will into the equation:

    Foreknew everyone -&gt; predestined everone -&gt; called everyone -&gt; those who responded in faith -&gt; justified -&gt; glorified.

    But again, that's not at all what the passage says. Why not? Because the sequence does not depend on man's free-will response, it depends entirely on God's election according to His purpose. As Romans says elsewhere, salvation has nothing to do with the works or desires of man, but pivots entirely on God who shows mercy - as is clearly demonstrated in the sequence above.
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    John 3:16; Acts 17:30b and II Peter 3:9 does not indicate that the Lord favors the elect while turning aside in rejection another group of very, very unfortunate ones.

    You said, 'But Arminians insist God calls everyone.'

    All sinners who hear the Gospel message hear the call to faith in Jesus Christ. It is our responsibility to witness to them. [Mark 16:15] The eternal justice and nature of Almighty God forbids any partiality towards some people. Neither Sublapsarianism or Superlapsarianism is correct. In fact these are doctrines who's origin comes from the pit.
     

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