Irresistible Grace, John 6:37

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Jul 17, 2012.

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  1. OldRegular

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    I do not like the term Irresistible Grace though I understand where and why the term originated. Some of Arminian persuasion use this term to imply that God must drag the elect "kicking and screaming" to Salvation, which is untrue. That being said Jesus Christ tells us in the Gospel according to John:

    John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    All that God the Father elects unto Salvation and gives to the Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ, shall come to Jesus Christ for Salvation. Other Scripture tell us that no one can come to Jesus Christ of his own volition.

    John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
     
  2. freeatlast

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    God's election and man free will working unto salvation.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    Nonsense! You are denying the clear teaching of Scripture.
     
  4. InTheLight

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    This is the second strawman in about an hour.

    Name one person on BB that states the elect must be dragged "kicking and screaming to salvation."

    Please provide a link to the post by this person.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    It is not a straw man and you know it.:laugh::wavey:
     
  6. convicted1

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    Boy, if we ever get called out by you guys ever again about proof texting, why, I'll..........:D

    You need to expand this just a "tad" to get to what Jesus was really talking about, and to whom He was talking about.

    John 6:37-40
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    He was talking about those who the Father gave to Jesus while He was here on earth. The others were blinded and dull of hearing due to their continual rebellion towards God(judicial hardening, if you will).
     
  7. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Woot! Woot! Woot!
     
  8. Winman

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    Why don't you like the term Irresistible Grace?

    Your remark reminds me of a lady who once said to me that she didn't think abortion was wrong, though she would never get one herself. I asked her why she would never get one herself if there is nothing wrong with it, she couldn't answer.

    Perhaps you do not like the term Irresistible Grace because in your heart you know it to be false?
     
  9. HankD

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    I don't like the phrase either because it doesn't actually give the correct focus of the John passages given as proof texts of "irresistible grace".

    The focus is that they (elect, chosen, etc...) will come to Him.
    Nothing is said about resisisting.

    That doesn't mean there will or won't be any resisitance on a personal level, the passage is just making a certain statement of fact.
    One of the defining characteristics of those the Father gives to the Son is: They will come to Him.

    Here is an example of resistance:

    John 3
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.​

    HankD​
     
  10. OldRegular

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    Nonsense convicted1!
     
  11. Van

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    Inability to Read?

    Why do Calvinists keep making the same claims but never addressing the rebuttal, except to dismiss it, usually with an attack on the opponents character and qualifications?

    Irresistible grace is ill defined. Does this refer to the spiritual alteration that supposedly enables a person to seek God and trust in Christ, or the action of God to put a person spiritually in Christ? The former a fiction, the latter a fact.

    What is meant by the phrase, all that the Father gives me? Does this mean the person is "given" by God spiritually altering the person or by God spiritually placing the person in Christ? The former is a fiction, the latter is a fact.

    What does the phrase mean, those that come to Me? Does this mean the person chooses to trust in Christ, or the person is spiritually placed in Christ. The former is a mistaken understanding, the latter is the correct understanding.

    Does scripture tell us no one can seek God or trust in Christ of their own volition, provided they have heard and understood the gospel? No, it teaches the unregenerate can understand the gospel and receive it with joy.

    Matthew 23:13 teaches unregenerate men were entering heaven, so they had heard and understood the gospel, and were seeking God and at least trusting in Christ to some degree. However, they were blocked by false teachers. So they had not yet been "given to Christ" by the Father, so the idea that "come to Me" refers to choice of men in John 6:37 is incorrect. Therefore the whole premise of irresistible grace which enables a person to trust in Christ is a fiction, but the premise that once God credits a person's unregenerate faith as righteousness, God then puts them in Christ irresistibly is fact.

    It is true that no one can come to Jesus unless allowed by the Father. But that truth does not teach no one can seek God and trust in Christ unless regenerated first by the Father, that premise is a fiction.

    And finally the last mush presented over and over by Calvinists. John 6:44 says 100% of those given to Christ were drawn by the Father. It does not say 100% of those drawn by the Father are given to Christ. This seeming inability to read is exhibited by 100% of the Calvinists that have expressed an opinion concerning this verse. Why is that?
     
  12. OldRegular

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    I don't like the term Irresistable Grace for the reason I stated in the OP Winman!

    where and why the term originated

    Just for you Winman the Remonstrances of the Arminians and the response of the Canons of Dort are presented below. Please note that I have bolded point #4 in each, again for your benefit. The remonstrances talk about Resistable Grace, the Canons, therefore, use the term Irresistible Grace.

    Now I fully understand that some will take issue with the wording and order of the remonstrances and possibly the Five Points from the Canons of Dort. They are perfectly welcome to do so.


    Arminian Articles of Remonstrance

    http://latter-rain.com/theology/armen.htm

    Jacobus Arminius died almost ten years before the controversy over his teachings came to a head. Ultra-Calvinism was reaffirmed at The Synod of Dort (1618-19) to combat the ongoing influence of Arminius. A group of Arminius' followers, known as Remonstrants (reproof, to correct) issued a protest called the Five Articles to the Reformed Church of Holland. They were led by two men, Simon Episcopius, and Jan Uytenbogaert in 1610. Basically, the articles were as follows:

    1. God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving.

    2. Christ died for all men (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin.

    3. Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit.

    4. All good deeds or movements in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God but his grace is not irresistible.

    5. Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith. But it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.

    The Arminian Articles of Remonstrance were condemned by the Synod of Dordt in 1619 and the reply was popularly called "the five points of Calvinism," in response to the Arminian Articles. The Remonstrants were expelled from the Reformed Church, hundreds of Arminians were removed from their pulpits and Arminianism was dubbed as a deviant doctrine. The doctrine spread however as an underground movement until it was the majority view in the body of Christ.​
    ****************************************************************
    The Canon of Dort ("The Five Points of Calvinism")

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/cal_arm.htm

    Five theological points were formulated to answer the Remonstrants in a document known as the Canon of Dort, which declared:

    1. that fallen man was totally unable to save himself (Total Depravity)

    2. that God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man (Unconditional Election)

    3. that Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect (Limited Atonement)

    4. that the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect (Irresistible Grace)

    5. that those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith (Perseverance of the saints)


    These doctrines have been called the five points of Calvinism and are often symbolized by the well known acronym TULIP. However, by themselves they are not a full exposition of Calvin's theology, but a caricature.

    The Canon of Dort is more properly viewed in its historical context as a theological response to the challenges of seventeenth century Arminianism. These doctrines, together with the Heidelberg Catechism and the Belgic Confession, became the doctrinal basis of the Dutch Church. ​
     
  13. OldRegular

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    There are 3 passages of Scripture presented. You should read all of them!

    John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/QUOTE]

    John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
     
  14. mandym

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    yes I agree!
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    The "facts" are that the Apostle paul in the bible clearly points out that we have individually selected/chosen/marked out by god, based upon His sovereign Will, to reveal the Lord jesus to us, to have us enabled to be saved, and to get us saved and placed in christ!

    Amd unregenerated persons do NOT enter into theKingdom, as they MUST have the new birth!
     
  16. Skandelon

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    4 Questions:

    1. Who, while on earth, was given to Christ by his Father to prepare to carry the Gospel of reconciliation to the world? (answer found in John 17)

    2. What nation were they from?

    3. What was happening to the rest of the people from that nation during this time? (Acts 28; Mark 4; Matt. 13; John 12:39; Rom 11)

    4. When was the Gospel sent to the Gentiles?
     
  17. Jerome

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    Sigh.

    Calvinist extraordinaire William Perkins, writing well before the Remonstrance:

    "The third question is, whether God did offer any violence, to Pauls minde and will, in his conuersion. Ansvver. There is a double violence, or Coaction. One, which doth abolish all consent of will; and this he vsed not. The other, draws out a consent from the will, by causing it of an vnwilling will, to become willing. This coaction or violence, God offered to Paul, and in this sense, they which come to Christ, are said to be drawne. . . .The last question is, whether it was in the power of Pauls will, to resist the calling, or the grace of God? Answ. The will for his condition is apt to resist grace: neuer the lesse, if we consider the efficacie of Gods grace, and the will of God, he could not resist the calling of God." [Commentary on Galatians (1604)]




    And long before the Gomarist Canons of Dort, the Calvinist John Robinson employed the phrase "irresistable grace" in a printed attack on early Baptists Thomas Helwys and John Smyth. [The Silencing of the Clamours Raised by Mr. Thomas Helwys Against Our Retaining the Baptism Received in England and the Administering of Baptism Unto Infants, Also a Survey of the Confession of Faith Published by Mr. Smyth's Company (1614)]
     
  18. OldRegular

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    Some of you folks understand the Greek. That is fine; I wish I did. I can use a lexicon to find how a Greek or Hebrew word is translated in the Bible but that is the extent of my linguistic ability as far as Greek is concerned. What I can do is compare various translations. But! I must then trust that the translators are both competent and honest! I use the KJV primarily but I also checked Acts 13:48 in a number of other translations [and one concise paraphrase].

    KJV: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


    ASV: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


    GLT: And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


    KJ21: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


    MKJV: And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


    NASB95: When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


    NASB: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


    NIV: When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honoured the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.


    NKJV: Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


    YLT: And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe--as many as were appointed to life age-during;


    ESV: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


    Berk: When they heard this, the Gentiles were glad; they eulogized the Lord’s message and believed - as many as were appointed for eternal life.


    There are others I could check but those were sufficient for me! All these versions say ordained or appointed to eternal life. I also looked at Gill and Spurgeon to see if they understood this Scripture as I do.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    Really nothing to "sigh" about Jerome. So you have read some info I have not! Sigh!

    The term "Irresistible Grace" is still a poor choice of words as far as I am concerned!
     
  20. saturneptune

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    I have always thought of irresistible grace as placing faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross after regeneration, or a touch from the Lord. Some have expressed the idea of people resisting to come up to the altar. There are several things wrong with that. First, walking to the altar has nothing to do with salvation. Secondly, even if it did, nothing says it has to happen that Sunday. In God's plan, it will happen to a regenerated person.

    I agree with Old Regular on this point. The term sounds like it is forced action, or the action of a programmed robot. It is the natural response of a regenerated person. What do you expect a regenerated person to do? Become a Satanist?

    It seems most of the arguments against doctrines of sovereignty are based on man made terms. I do not believe you will find TULIP anywhere in the Bible.
     
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