Irresistible Grace Summed Up By Jesus

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin, Jan 1, 2008.

  1. Martin

    Martin
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    "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" -John 6:37

    Irresistible grace as taught by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

    Got a problem with it? Don't complain to me, see Him. :wavey:
     
  2. Jarthur001

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    :thumbs: I happen to agree.
     
  3. TCGreek

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    Martin,

    I'm sure you know that that text doesn't really mean what we think it means.
     
  4. Martin

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    ==I know, how silly of us to take what Jesus said literally. :rolleyes:
     
  5. donnA

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    Jesus didn't seem a bit confused over the issue did He.
     
  6. reformedbeliever

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    It seems as if He meant what He said too. When we read His prayer in John 17... it seems He mentions it five times again. Of course we know that God only gave em to Jesus AFTER they repented and believed.... :laugh: (sarcasm alert) thats why Jesus said He was not praying for the world, but those whom the Father gave Him.
     
  7. PK

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    JOHN 6:37-40 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Calvinistic theology focuses on the first part of John 6:37 to support the TULIP doctrine of irresistible grace. If the first half of John 6:37 is taken out of context, it does appear to teach some sort of irresistible grace, but it cannot be forced from its context.

    "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" refers to the fact that the Father has ordained that every believer will have eternal life. This is explained clearly in verse 40 - "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." Words could not be plainer, and this is what the New Testament repeatedly promises. The Gospel is not limited to the elect. The Gospel is for whosoever will, and the elect are the whosoever will. Consider the teaching of John chapter six which refutes the TULIP doctrine of irresistible grace: (1) The Lord Jesus Christ died for whole world (Jn. 6:51; compare Luke 2:10,30-32; John 1:29; 3:16; Rom. 15:8-12; Eph. 2:11-22; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb. 2:9; 1 Pet. 3:19-21; 1 John 4:14). (2) It is God's express will for all men to saved (Jn. 6:40; compare John 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9). (3) Any man who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ has eternal life (Jn. 6:40,47,51).

    Second, there is the context of the entire Gospel of John, which repeatedly emphasizes the universal call of God inviting sinners to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and which repeatedly promises that whosoever shall believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved. This is the theme of John's Gospel, and it is the purpose for the book. "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (John 20:31). The Gospel is not addressed merely to "the elect" but to every individual in the entire world. It is an elect only Gospel, but a whosoever Gospel.

    Someone will doubtless point to verse 44 to support the doctrine of irresistible grace: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." This verse does not prove that God sovereignly chooses who will and will not be saved, for the Bible also tells us that God desires all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). It is absolutely true that no man can come to Christ except the Father draw him, but Jesus said in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me." How does God draw men to Christ? He draws through the Gospel, which He has commanded to be preached to every creature (Mark 16:15). It is by the Gospel that God calls men (2 Thess. 2:14). 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 tells us that those who are lost are lost not because they are not chosen for salvation, but because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

    In John 6 the Lord Jesus Christ is addressing the Jewish crowds which were following Him because of the miracle of the multiplying loaves (John 6:24-26). Their minds were set on worldly things. They wanted a worldly savior and king, a political and social messiah. The Lord had irrefutably proven His messiahship to them by His birth, life, and miracles, but they still asked for "a sign" (verse 30) and they did not believe (verse 36, "ye also have seen me, and believe not"). Why did most of the Jewish people not believe? Why did the Jewish leaders not believe? It was not because God had not chosen them? It was because of THEIR OWN HARD HEARTS. When Christ wept over Jerusalem just prior to His crucifixion, He stated this matter plainly: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED THY CHILDREN TOGETHER, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!" (Matthew 23:37). The problem was not that the unbelieving Jews were not chosen for salvation. Christ would have saved all of them. The problem was that they rejected Him. The problem was the will. Christ would, but they would not. Man has the capability to reject God, and He has the capability to receive God. That is taught from the beginning of the Bible to the end.

    I do not deny that there is a special work of God in the believer's life to draw him to Christ. It is impossible for a man to come to Christ except God drawn him and enlighten him and convict him; but this is precisely what God does by the Holy Spirit for every man who hears the Gospel (John 16:8).

    God's election cannot be divorced from His foreknowledge. We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Peter 1:2). God has known from all eternity who will and will not receive the Gospel.

    God has chosen that those who receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be eternally saved!

    "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    Hello PK,

    I am not going to debate irresistible grace. I believe it to be true, but it is hard to prove. It is also hard to disprove. Irresistible grace (IG) must be looked at with total depravity. I wrote a 3 part study on this, maybe 4 part, I can't remember right now linking the two. IG is but a short part of the study of the two linked together.

    However, I would like for you to give a quick statement on what you quoted above. Do you feel must non-calvinist hold to God elects based on what he foreknows to be true. or....God elects who He knows will believe? I will not debate on this either. I just want your input as a non-Calvinist.



    Thanks....

    In Christ....James
     
    #8 Jarthur001, Jan 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2008
  9. canadyjd

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    What about all those folks who never hear the gospel? Just too bad they weren't born in a country, or at a time in history, when the gospel was being preached?
    If God choses people for salvation based on what they do, then it is no longer grace. Grace means "unmerited favor".

    You must believe in "merited favor" because that is what you just said. God saw who would believe, and chose people for salvation based on something they do. If God is responding to man, then man has earned his salvation before God, and it cannot rightly be called "grace" any longer.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  10. webdog

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    If the Gospel call is irresistable, and God knows it, why does He fail to give it to all?
     
  11. Martin

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    ==Of course every believer will have eternal life (Jn 3:16), that is beyond question. But that is NOT what Jesus is saying here. Jesus clearly states that "ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me". Notice that (a) the Father gives then they come, (b) all those that the Father gives come, and (c) all the Father gives to Jesus will (not might or should) come to Jesus. Who does Jesus give eternal life to? Those the Father gives to Him (Jn 17:2).

    ==You are correct, words could not be plainer. That makes me wonder why you just don't accept what verse 37a says without trying to water it down or cancel it out with verse 40.

    Those the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus, will not be cast out (vs37), will not be lost (vss38-39), and will be raised up on the last day (vs39). That is the same as saying that those who believe will have eternal life and be raised up on the last day (vs40). However verse 40 does not discuss election, which is the topic of verse 37.

    ==The elect will respond to the Gospel call by faith (Jn 6:37, 10:26-27, 17:2, etc). The non-elect will not respond.


    ==Anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ will have eternal life, I agree. However it is only the elect who will believe (Jn 6:37, 17:2, etc). The non-elect do not believe (Jn 10:26).


    ==This statement proves that you do not understand Calvinism. If you did, you would know that Calvinists believe in preaching the Gospel to everyone. Calvinists also believe that "whosoever shall believe on the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved". The issue with Calvinism and effectual calling is not "who can" but "who will".


    ==I agree with that statement. The Gospel call goes out to all men. However it is only those the Father has given to Jesus who will come to Jesus and recieve eternal life (Jn 6:37, 17:2). The rest of humanity ignores, rejects, or laughs at the Gospel call. Why will the elect come to Jesus? Because God has purposed that. Notice Jesus said that ALL the Father gives to Him WILL come to Him. There is no question about these specific people coming to Jesus. To deny effectual calling (Irresistible grace) is to deny the specific and certain message of Jesus in John 6:37 (etc).


    ==Well, it was Jesus who made very clear that it is those specific people whom the Father has given Him who will come to Him and gain eternal life (Jn 6:37,17:2). Concerning those Jewish people who did not believe Jesus made clear that they did not believe "because you are not of My sheep" (Jn 10:26). Jesus laid down His life for His sheep (Jn 10:11), Jesus knows His sheep and His sheep know Him (Jn 10:14), and Jesus' sheep follow Him (Jn 10:27). He gives eternal life to His sheep (Jn 10:28). According to Jesus these Jewish folks did not believe because they were not His sheep. Certainly they had hard hearts, certainly they refused to believe, but if they had been Christ's sheep their hard hearts would have been removed and they would have come to Christ (Ez 36:26-27, Heb 8:11, Jn 6:37, Rom 9:15-18).


    ==And why did they reject Him? Because they were not elect. God does not desire any to perish, but God has not elected all to salvation. I have quoted the verses over and over again in this reply that make this point clear. O, and btw, 2Peter 3:9 refers to the elect and not to every single individual on earth. Don't believe me? Pay close attention to the wording of the text.


    ==If God draws all men to Jesus in the exact same way, then all men would come to Jesus and be saved (universalism). However we all know that does not happen. Why not? Because all are not drawn the same way. Those the Father has given to Jesus are drawn to Jesus in a way that must be different from the general call. How do I know? Because they do turn to Jesus. John 16:8 does not teach what you are trying to make it teach.


    ==That understanding of foreknowledge is faulty and unBiblical. It puts God in the position of a sideline spectator and it makes mortal man sovereign. Such a notion is unBiblical. Notice that, according to Jesus, it is God who makes the first move (Jn 6:37). Paul also taught this (Rom 5:6-11, 9:6-13, Eph 1:1-14,2:10, Phil 1:29, 2Tim 2:25, 1Cor 1:30, 2Thess 2:13, 2Tim 1:9 & 2:10, etc). Foreknowledge is personal. God knows those who are His (Rom 8:29-30), and He has known from all eternity (2Tim 2:19). Peter expresses this truth, that God has always known who were His.
     
  12. Martin

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    ==If I could answer that question I would not be sitting on this computer at 11:35pm typing on this messageboard. There are somethings mortals cannot understand. What we do know, however, is that all the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus. Why not every person on earth? I don't know.
     
  13. Jarthur001

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    Hard hitting post, that kept with the subject....:thumbs:
     
  14. webdog

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    But Scripture does tell us in so many words...it is NOT irresistable. What did Jesus say while lamenting over Jerusalem?

    What mortals cannot understand is what goes on in one person's head as opposed to another, and why one accepts and one rejects. The call goes out to all to repent, but not all repent. If the call was irresistabel, everyone would repent, and we knot that is not the case. I've shared the Gospel with my mother in law who is not saved. If she dies in this state, the Gospel and Words of Christ are most definately not irresistable, but quite resistable, else there is no power in the words of Christ.
     
  15. skypair

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    Martin, I think the issue becomes clear when you consider the OT context of the statement.

    Who does God give to the Son? The OT saints first of all. He will raise them from their graves and they will come to Jesus/Messiah in the "rebirth" from death. The disciples must first be aware of this before they can go to the next concept -- that God delivers the "just" (Col 1:13) by 'translating them" as they live "into the kingdom of His dear Son."

    IOW, when we are saved today, there are 2 things going on: 1) we are made "just" before God (same as OT) and 2) we are delivered over to the spiritual kingdom of Christ for sanctification of life. The OT saints weren't/couldn't be given over to Christ for the sanctification of life (which is the biblical way of saying we die to self and live to Christ) because there had come no physical Christ.

    In summary, the scripture merely says that all believers in God will immediately or eventually be given into Christ's kingdom.

    skypair
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    At least credit the source, unless you wrote it: http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/allthat-thefathergives.html
     
  17. Martin

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    ==I agree, God's grace is resistable to the non-elect. In fact, Scripture tells us that they always reject God's grace (Jn 10:26, etc). God's grace is only irresistable when it is bringing God's elect to Himself. I have to return to what Jesus said in John 6:37a:

    "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me"

    Notice that it is "all" that the Father gives to Jesus who "will" come to Jesus (ie...believe, vs40, 17:2). Those the Father has not given to Jesus do not believe and Jesus does not claim them (Jn 6:44, 17:9, etc). Those the Father has given to Jesus "will" believe in Jesus. There is no question about that, they will. I don't see any other conclusion that one can reach other than, when it comes to those the Father has given to Jesus (elect), effectual calling or irresistable grace.

    ==From a Biblical point of view the reason people refuse to believe is that they are in sin and darkness, they are children of wrath who don't seek after God. The Gospel may or may not be preached to them but if it is they will reject it. Why? Because they have not been given to Christ by the Father. If they had been they would come to Christ at some point in their life (Jn 10:26-29).

    ==Certainly the Gospel call goes out to the whole world, everyone is invited to come. Certainly lost people who sit in a church evangelistic service, or in some other context, hear the Gospel and have the Holy Spirit witness to their hearts. They may clean their lives us, start going to church, or they may not. Either way they reject the truth of the Gospel and go their own way. It is only the elect, only those the Father has given to Jesus, who respond to the Gospel and the drawing in a saving way.


    ==I am in the same boat with my mother and a brother of mine. This brother I speak of is a drunk (no nicer way to put it). I have witnessed to him, as have others, he has been to my church and other good churches. Still he goes on his own way. He has ruined his credit, alienated most of his family and friends, and he looks terrible. My mother is a retired school teacher. She is a nice person who works for a church charity. She claims she has accepted Christ but she refuses to attend any church. I don't know if she is saved or not. I say that to say that I know what you mean by having loved ones who are not saved. However that does not change my view because I believe my view is based on Scripture.

    I don't know why some are elect and some are not. I don't know why God does things the way He does, but I do believe the Scripture (as I know you do as well). Does that mean I have every answer to every question? No. Sometimes I wish I did, most of the time I am thankful I don't.
     
  18. Martin

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    ==I suppose, generally speaking, I don't really find anything in your reply to disagree with. However I do think John 6:37 is more specific then you are allowing. John 6:37 is talking about individuals coming to Christ. Jesus is talking about believing in Him (vss33-35,40), why some don't (vss36,44), and why some do (vs37). People believe in Jesus, come to Jesus, because they were given to Him by the Father (Jn 6:37, 17:2).
     
  19. Martin

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    ==I failed to catch that, thanks for being more alert than I am. :thumbs:

    In the world of education, the practice of making someone else's work appear as your own is called plagiarism. Here is a website I link my students to.

    However, I will give PK the benefit of the doubt. I think PK was just posting what PK believed was a good response to John 6:37. Personally, I don't think it was a very good (ie...Biblical) response at all.
     
    #19 Martin, Jan 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2008
  20. JustChristian

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    Accepting Christ's offer of eternal salvation is not a "work." Salvation is by Grace not works.
     

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