Is Abortion really Murder?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by post-it, Aug 22, 2002.

  1. post-it

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    In this poll let's assume abortion is outlawed and made a murder offense. An 18 year old girl in a capital punishment State gets a illegal abortion.

    [ August 22, 2002, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  2. Sojourner

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    Isn't the poll going to be skewed because of the premises assumed before the poll is taken?

    It seems to me, IMhO, that the "if"s win.
     
  3. post-it

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    It is not skewed. We are only dealing with the aftermath of what could be the ultimate punishment for abortion as seen through the arguments that abortion is murder therefore, it should have a punishment that "fits" the crime.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    As should the doctor who performs it. Life is life and should be treated that way.
     
  5. Helen

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    It would take VERY few cases like this to stop abortion altogether where this law existed, except in cases where the mother's life was in danger, I presume.

    Then there would be more people alive who would have been killed. There would be far fewer mothers who look at empty swings on playgrounds and wonder what their child would have looked at playing there.

    I want it on record, though, that I don't approve of the death penalty for anyone under the age of 20.
     
  6. UncleRay

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    HI Helen,
    you said
    I want it on record, though, that I don't approve of the death penalty for anyone under the age of 20.

    Does this mean that it's OK to put some one to death when they are no longer 19 years and 364 days old? What happens in couple of days when they are 20? What changed in 48 hours that we should end that person's life before God is done with him?

    I know this is a tough issue especially where terrible crimes are involved.

    GRace and peace,
    Uncle Ray
     
  7. Wisdom Seeker

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    This will never happen in the real world.
     
  8. Prasenik

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    Sure it would. Just probatly not in the U.S. or Canada, Western Europe, or a similiar place. but theres countries where this could probatly happn (i might add, all ones where women are ttreated unjustly inm general.
     
  9. Maverick

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    I second the thought of the doc or whoever sharing the gallows with her.

    As to age, if you are old enough to know that killing someone is wrong then you should suffer whatever the punishment is for that crime. It doesn't matter if you are 8 or 80.
     
  10. Helen

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    Hi Ray,

    Teen brains are busy getting rewired. I think that is why God said that the age at which there would be a line drawn between those who had to die in the wilderness for their rebellion and those who would be allowed in to the promised land was 20.

    There seems to be an indication there that God Himself knows teens are wacky and struggling to come to terms with themselves and life and relationships and everything else and their minds can change daily.

    There is always the chance that teens can change (why not one more time!?), but by the time you reach your early twenties, things are starting to settle.

    It is not a matter of 19 years and 364 days, but simply that a line has to be drawn somewhere and God seems to be indicating that 20 years old is a good place. So I'll go with that.
     
  11. Prasenik

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    I guess the executioner ought to know killing people is wrong...... [​IMG] Seriously though, I agree with capital punishment (its in the bible and obviously its needed for some things).

    Executing 8 year olds? No eight year old I've ever known could possibly really understand the full import of death/killing somone. When I was eight and my close uncle died (in front of me, I saw the whole thing) I didn't understand it until years later. If we are to have capital punishment we should draw a line above which any mentally normal (ie. not retarded or something) person would definatly be able to understand killing someone to be not only wrong, but understand why, and exacttly how wrong it is (understand the consequences, how precious life is, etc). SO maybe 20 or so, yah there's people lower than that who do, and its too bad they escape, but its better to let them go to jail instead rather than us killing people unjustly
     
  12. HankD

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    Maybe we should start another poll...

    Are you glad your mother did not choose to have an abortion?

    O Yes
    O No

    [ August 23, 2002, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  13. Maverick

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    We live in a different age. 8 years know how to procreate, hold mock political rallies and have seen multiple murders and sex acts on TV and in the movies. They know it is wrong to kill and if the lad/lassie takes an rifle or pistol to school and shoots someone they know what they are doing. Even Jews and Catholics set the age of accountability at 12. Thanks to technology and the media it is easy to see that age drop four years at least. Your little baby is no longer innocent.
     
  14. Maverick

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    Deut 13:6-11
    6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
    7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
    8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
    9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
    10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
    11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you. (KJV)

    This was only for a false prophesy which would put a lot of folks in danger today if we were a theocracy. What we are teaching our kids is that you can do most anything up to age 18/20 and pretty get away with it or at least get a much lighter sentence because we are just kids. Let a child hang and I bet the kids will suddenly mature and we will see less violent crime among them. Put executions on all channels interrupting all other programs and let the judgment be much quicker and a lot more adults will think twice about bustin' a cap on someone. Where is judge Roy Bean now that we really need him? Even lost people are fed up. Toby Keith sings about hanging bad guys in the streets for all the people to see and some of remember "Simple Man" by Charlie Daniels where we take child abusers, rapists and such out to the swamp and tie them to a stump and let the bugs and the snakes and alligators take care of the rest. by the wya, I would feel safe to say that executions in the Trib of believers will be televised. Give a man/woman 30 days with an evangelist and then execute them and watch a real change in the crime rate.
     
  15. Prasenik

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    Yah, I agree. The countries where people think they can fix everything by getting tough and killing lots of people always work out really well in the end. Break some eggs, get an ommlete (I dare you to provide even one example where this hasn't worked out as expected). The mark of a truly civilized and brave nation should be its collective willingness to show no mercy toward its young children, and its relish in executing them.
     
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Hi Ray,

    Teen brains are busy getting rewired. I think that is why God said that the age at which there would be a line drawn between those who had to die in the wilderness for their rebellion and those who would be allowed in to the promised land was 20.

    </font>[/QUOTE]I am not doubting you Helen or anything, but I don't remember ever reading anything like that. Would you please cite chapter and verse so that we may look this up?

    Thank You,

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  17. HeisLord

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    Problem is, that the sin of abortion (murder) is the short term answer to another sin, fornication or adultery. There are probably some cases where consenting married people decide to abort a baby. And that too is sad. But I'm sure a thorough study would reveal that most abortions are not performed on happily married women.

    Sin always compicates life. I knew a girl when I was in 8th grade, eons ago, that was sexually involved with a 9th grader. She got pregnant, had an abortion, lied and lied and lied, and now lives with alot of guilt. Sin leads to sin. And if abortion were treated like the capital offense it should be, then we would see a decrease in the abortion rates.

    Because it is murder, I would say the death penalty is appropriate. As far as age of understanding, as my mother always said, "If a gal knows enough about how to get pregnant, well...she knows enough!!"
     
  18. Maverick

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    Deut 21:18-23
    18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
    20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
    21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
    22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
    23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. (KJV)

    This is a grown son and he was put to death for things less "severe" than murder.

    Num 1:1-3
    1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying,
    2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls;
    3 From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies. (KJV)

    I don't think this had anything to do with sin or accountability. It looks like the normal age for a man to be eligible for militray service was 21.

    Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. (KJV)

    Deut 19:10-13
    10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.
    11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:
    12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.
    13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee. (KJV)

    Num 35:33-34
    33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.
    34 Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel. (KJV)

    Note that capital punishment is before the law and so was not done away by the law, but reaffirmed and did not pass away with the sacrifical and ceremonial law, but was reaffirmed in Roman 13 since we are discussing moral and judicial law.

    Note that it says that our eye is not to pity the pre-meditated murderer. No insanity plea or anything based upon his poor childhood or whatever. It would not be a stretch to say that age is not a factor either. We might be pity a very young man or a very old one, but pity is to be reserved for the victim not the murderer.

    Note also that blood defiles the land and can only be cleansed by the blood of the murderer. We have many murderers still on death roll and the innocent blood cries out for justice and the land remains defiled. Yes, accidental killings were not considered murders including a thief in the night because you would have a better chance of killing him in the dark because of "aim" issues", but if it was daylight and you could have spared him and you killed him then blood would be shed for the thief because theft required restitution not the death penalty.
     
  19. Prasenik

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    Maverick, I am ignorant. Please show me the section of the bible that sanctions hanging eight year olds because their exposure to violent television programs has taught them to understand that killing is wrong to the same degree an adult should understand, and shown them the true consequences of it, so they understand it as well as an adult.
     
  20. Maverick

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    It does not mention age at all. That is the point. The issue is understanding of right and wrong. Until recently, if it could be determined that even a mentally challenged person understood what they were doing at the time of the murder they were subject to the death penalty. If an 8 year old understands that he is a sinner (and we usually accept the professions of even younger children) but does not accept Christ and is killed in a car accident does he/she go to Hell? If so, then why can't that same 8 year old understand that it is wrong to kill and be subject to the penalty for such a crime? Your arguments against it are not biblical, but emotional, subjective personal views thinking that children are naive. Charles Spurgeon took his very young children through the graveyard with rulers measuring the graves that were smaller than his childen to drive home the point that death comes to the very young as well as to the old. If he could teach his children such deep subjects as death, sin, repentance and Heaven and Hell then they could have understood right from wrong and the sin of murder. If ours do not, we have not taught them, but they do and we are just naive and sentimental thinking that they do not know and allow them by age to manipulate us and to get away with things they should not get away with and fulfill Isa 3:12 allowing children to rule over us. No wonder we have violent gangs if we thing they are just babies who do nto know better and do not do what is necessary to stop the violence. People will do what they are allowed to get away with.
     

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