IS Albert Mohler Considered A "stauch" calvinist then?

Whats BF&M (Bacon, Fries & Mayo) ?

 

Baptist Faith and Message -- the articles of faith of the SBC (in general, no one "must" hold them to be SBC).

Here is a link to the 2000 version: http://www.sbts.edu/about/truth/bfm/

There was also a 1963: http://www.baptiststart.com/print/1963_baptist_faith_message.html

And a 1925 version: http://www.baptiststart.com/print/1925_baptist_faith_message.html


For a comparison of all 3 side-by-side, check this:
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfmcomparison.asp

 

A church can (and some rare few have) choose to have a woman pastor. There is no mechanism within the SBC to cause that autonomous church to reconsider. All the SBC can do is offer a resolution that speaks against the practice. At the State Convention or local associational level, one can disfellowship a congregation that strays from the State or Association by-laws, but that is all.

As of 2000, a report stated that fewer than 1/10 of 1% of all SBC churches had a woman pastor. That means that of the 43,000+ churches, 10 state conventions report of having a women as senior pastor. Within those 10 state conventions, the numbers in that report break down as follows:

A close examination of those churches will indicate that many also have ties to the moderate CBF (Cooperative Baptist Fellowship -- a splinter sect within the SBC that often stand for "liberal issues" such as women in the pulpit, gay rights, abortion on demand, etc.).

The numbers have not changed appreciably in the convening 11 years since the report cited above, but the debate continues between liberal or moderate churches that press the issue and the more conservative SBC.

 

I agree... I have read and witnessed debates between Patterson, Mohler, Akin, and other SBC leaders. Patterson comes off as the most Arminian-leaning of the bunch, but he is definitely not a true Arminian. In context to the more reformed of the group he is more open, but as you explained, he is more a moderate Calvinist as are many SBC persons.

Even in the faculty of Southern Seminary there is a wide range of views on this subject. Being a 5-point Calvinist is not a prerequisite for holding a tenured professorship at Southern. That being said, most of the profs are at least moderate, if not full Calvinists in their soteriology (to which Calvinism applies). They are not, however, Presbyterians, paedo-baptists, etc., none of which is required to hold to the Doctrines of Grace so-named Calvinism.

 

Strictly speaking, the 1925 is not a BF&M, but the New Hampshire Confession.

 

EWF, it is Baptist, Faith and Message and yes one can read it and still not be Calvinist as most (by a long shot) SBC churches are not calvinistic.

 

Thats not true. The average SBC church is MUCH closer to Calvinism than Arminianism. In fact, Methodists often refer to us as "Calvinist."

 

OK HD you win.

 

Don't want to "win." But the majority of SBC churches hold to the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message (in fact, I have not seen ANY SBC churches that did not hold to the BF & M) which is a decidedly Calvinistic document, affirming everything except for limited atonement...and leaving that one undecided.

Notice: Regeneration before faith and repentance...

"Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."

Notice: Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace

"Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility."

Notice: Perseverance of the Saints

"All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation."

 

HD, perhaps we are reading different documents. I see a BFM which attempts to be cognizant of both Cal and Non-Cal streams in Baptist Life. Here is the section titled Salvation

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.

C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.
V. God's Purpose of Grace

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Genesis 12:1-3; Exodus 19:5-8; 1 Samuel 8:4-7,19-22; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 31:31ff.; Matthew 16:18-19; 21:28-45; 24:22,31; 25:34; Luke 1:68-79; 2:29-32; 19:41-44; 24:44-48; John 1:12-14; 3:16; 5:24; 6:44-45,65; 10:27-29; 15:16; 17:6,12,17-18; Acts 20:32; Romans 5:9-10; 8:28-39; 10:12-15; 11:5-7,26-36; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; 15:24-28; Ephesians 1:4-23; 2:1-10; 3:1-11; Colossians 1:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 2 Timothy 1:12; 2:10,19; Hebrews 11:39–12:2; James 1:12; 1 Peter 1:2-5,13; 2:4-10; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:19; 3:2.

 

Nope, same document. And there are no "non cal" streams in the SBC. There are Free Will Baptists, but they are NOT by any stretch, Southern Baptists.

The document does attempt to moderate between the mainstream "moderate" 4 point Calvinism, which is held by the large majority of Southern Baptists, and the more logically consistent 5 point Calvinism, held by a smaller number. But the message clearly articulates regeneration BEFORE faith and repentance, and 4 of the 5 points. It is a Calvinist document. Maybe not from a Presbyterians perspective, but certainly from the perspective of mainstream American Christianity.

 

Well, once again, we will just have to disagree. I had a dear cherished Professor at Baptist Bible Institute (Dr. Wiley Richards) who did much work and concluded that there was indeed from the earliest days a stream of "non-calvinists" in SBC life. In my 48 years, I have always been in "non-cal" SBC churches, the VAST majority of SBC churches in my current association as well as my home town are indeed of the "non-cal" flavor. I understand from your perspective that you would probably prefer to view it as "liberalization" of Baptists. I have not had a Baptist History class in a LONG while, but I believe that both streams have been involved in SBC life over the years.

 

Again, it is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. It is printed out, plainly, in black and white. The official stance of the Southern Baptist position, and the VAST majority of churches that hold to the BF & M, is that Regeneration precedes faith, saints will persevere, and election that is not based on foreseen merit. That, my friend, is Calvinism. You can bury your head in the sand, and pretend to call it something else...but it does not change what it IS.

There is no such thing as an "Arminian" Southern Baptist. The "two streams" you speak of, are 4 point Calvinists, and 5 point.

 

HD, please help me out, where does the BFM conflict with:



That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

 

HD

I think I have "stubled upon" one "issue" over which we are not clear (with each other). I seem to gather that you define anyone who holds to any of the "5 points" in some degree a Calvinist, whereas, I am of the mindset that Calvinism is "in for a penny in for a pound." By this, then, I would be.....say a 1.5 point Calvinist, but I consider myself to be a non-Cal.

 

I would not consider a person that holds to 1.5 of the points to be Calvinist. In order to be Calvinist, you would have to fit into one of the three recognized branches...

Sublapsarian (or "4 point" Calvinism)

Infralapsarian (or "5 point" Calvinism)

Supralapsarian (What Piper has jokingly referred to as "6 point" Calvinism)

The Baptist Faith and Message is, at minimum, a Sublapsarian document, that allows for Infra and Supralapsarianism. Most churches are "Sublapsarian," affirming the Perseverance of the Saints, affirming that people are wicked and cannot come to God without Him moving first, and affirming election that is not based on foreseen merit. They would deny the "L".

I also understand that the majority of SBC pastors and leaders would stringently deny that they are Calvinists. However, their objection is always (at least, all the ones that I have encountered), that Christ "Died for everybody." However, I have never met, in person, a SBC man that denied the other 4 points. I am sure their are some 3 pointers out there, but I doubt seriously if there are ANY who actually embrace Arminianism...its just not possible to be an Arminian and embrace the B F & M.

 

I agree with you with one caveat...

I have found a multiplicity of local SBC pastors who disavow the term "Calvinist" because of the same sort of misunderstandings that we see here on the board. They presume that the term means that one "follows Calvin" and/or in some sense "adopts a Presbyterian" form of church governance, polity, ordinance, or some other doctrine not in keeping with Baptist distinctions, not realizing that Calvinism applies only to a narrow portion of theology, that being a view of soteriology.

Those same pastors, then, by process of elimination become "Arminian" without ever realizing just what it is that they are accepting (such as the very un-baptistic concepts of loss of salvation, human works as a means to salvation, quasi-universalism, easy-believism, etc.).

The process of elimination I have seen in the thinking of many a Baptist (both preacher and lay-person) is akin to that which I applied personally to calling myself "Christian" before I was born again and truly justified and adopted into the family of Christ, i.e., that I was "not" a Buddhist, a Satanist, a Hindu, a Mormon, or some other cult or false religion, therefore, I "was" by default a Christian. Just as I did not understand the implications of my thought process and found myself reasoning in such a manner as was inconsistent with Scripture, so to do these pastors and lay-persons reason, never realizing that what they are doing, essentially, is setting up human free will on a throne above that of God Himself!

 

Thanks. I guess I am relieved that I can continue to call myself a non-cal.

 

so to do these pastors and lay-persons reason, never realizing that what they are doing, essentially, is setting up human free will on a throne above that of God Himself!

I know a lot of folks who are non-Calvinists who in no way "set up human free will on a throne above that of God Himself." Then again I guess they haven't ascended to the intellectual level that you have and are just to stupid to realize the error of their ways. How arrogant can you get in making such an insulting statement? You need to apologize and repent of such an arrogant attitude. No wonder there are a lot of pastors who want nothing to do with Calvinists who make such arrogant and insulting statements about people who don't agree with them.

 

I will do no such thing when I have witnessed what I have said in person.

Most who do so have no intention of even suggesting that they have elevated human will above God, but they in fact have. God cannot do what God will do with them unless they first agree... Who, in fact, is boss in that scenario?

What I find in Scripture are two sorts of people. Those who bow down before Holy God, and who, as best they can, offer their lives as bond servants to the Most High God, and those who elevate human wisdom and will above the Lord, our God. I choose (as much as I can) to be in the first camp, and will bow to my Sovereign Lord, even if His will goes against my own, and I pray it does, for strangely, I find my will is often in opposition to His. As Christ taught us to pray, "Thy will be done..."

The conversation above has NOTHING at all to do with "those who disagree with me..." It has EVERYTHING to do with the response of pastors and lay-persons to Almighty God. I really don't care, nor can I truly effect change in those "who disagree with me." I can speak, preach, write, and work to convince, but until rebellious sinners come face-to-face with Almighty God, they will probably not change, and even if they do, they will likely change only in their own ability, not in the ways that God alone can use, i.e., to make one a new creation, where the old has passed and the new has come.

Praise God, by NO effort of my own, I have been imputed the righteousness of Christ and am now a joint heir with Him. My only action has been to bow and hand off any semblance of my will to Him, and that after He made me able so to do.