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Is Baptism essential for salvation

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 2 Tim. 2:15, Jul 9, 2008.

  1. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    I do not care what any "Church Father" thought about that part of John 3:3-6 -- especially if they are as late as Justin Martyr and afterward.

    I am interested in what was being communicated by Jesus to Nicodemus at John 3:3-6. As ancient Hebrews, they would have meant and understood this conversation in ancient Hebrew meanings. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Augustine were not ancient Hebrews -- they were Greek-speaking and Latin-speaking people from outside Palestine, and all wrote well over 100 years after this conversation.
     
    #41 Darron Steele, Jul 10, 2008
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  2. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    I believe being born again (which includes repentance, baptism, and infilling of the Holy Ghost, no one part working without the other) saves. I say that because I don't think we can obey in part and still be saved. Peter, to whom the keys to the kingdom were given, commanded in Acts 2 that those men 1. repent 2. be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins 3. and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And that is Church of Christ doctrine.
    It includes a heresy called "baptismal regeneration," meaning that the "work of baptism" man's work, is necessary for salvation. This is an affornt, an insult to Christ.
    It means that when Christ said: "It is finished," meaning the work of Christ on the cross, the payment for our sins, his sacrificial blood shed for us, that you come along and say--"Nope Jesus, that is not enough. You have failed. I need to help your atonement by being baptized. You failed Christ. I have to help you out by my baptism. After all I need to have a part in salvation too.
    A "works salvatioin" is no salvation at all.
     
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    So how do you interpret this verse to mean baptism is part of salvation, when it does not say that. In fact, it says that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believe.

    Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
     
  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I couldn't help but noticed your clear avoidance of the plain teaching of Scripture in reference to Cornelius. Wow!

    According to Acts 10:43, it's faith in Jesus's name that results in the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is simply an evidence of that.

    As a ceremonial practice, baptism does not point to itself, but like a true ceremony it points to that which it symbolizes, in this case, forgiveness of sins.
     
    #45 TCGreek, Jul 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2008
  6. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    Is that the type of answer you're looking for?
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

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    Exactly!

    A person who is not saved does not have the Holy Ghost. Those who were baptized in Acts 10 already had the Holy Ghost. They were already saved prior to their baptism in water!
     
    #47 standingfirminChrist, Jul 10, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2008
  8. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    Yeah well according to Acts 2:38 it's baptism that results in forgiveness of sins.
    "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

    So which scripture is right ? You can decide, but I'd rather accept both as true and right.
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

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    Helloooooo

    that word 'for' in Acts 2 does not mean 'to receive,' as you suppose. It means 'because of'

    Because their sins were in remission, they were to be baptized in obedience to God.
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I agree. It is clear that since Nicodemus brought up natural birth that Jesus would refer to it as He continued His teaching.
     
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Acts 2:38 doesn't say "results in."
     
  12. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    How could they have been saved if they still bore there sins? Oh but I forgot some of you don't believe baptism is for the remission of sins right? Just believe and your sins are remitted?
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

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    also, remission is not forgiveness as he supposes.
     
  14. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    I know it doesn't... this is what it says " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "
     
  15. standingfirminChrist

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    Peter told them to Repent, that means to have a change of mind about their sins. If they repent of their sins, they are not going to want to commit them anymore.

    Paul did not want to sin in Romans 7 and yet, because of the weakness of the flesh, he found himself sinning.

    Now, back to Peter in Acts 2...

    When one repents as Peter commanded, there will be a remission of sin in their lives. Not that they will not sin from time to time, but the repentance has brought about a remission. Baptism follows because of the remission, not to bring it about.
     
  16. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    In Eph 1:13, 14, Paul says that we receive the Spirit when we believe, which is further proof that baptism is only ceremonial, pointing to which it symbolizes.
     
    #56 TCGreek, Jul 10, 2008
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  17. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    See Darron you said little words don't have to be looked up.

    For-in order to obtain, gain, or acquire; with the object or purpose of

    So it is saying be baptized in order to obtain the remisssion of sins

    Where did you get your definition of "for" from?
     
  18. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    Are you serious? Remission is not forgiveness as I suppose? Hey I didn't write the dictionaries so I'm not supposing anything ...My definitions come from a dictionary.

    Remission- pardon; forgiveness, as of sins or offenses
     
  19. standingfirminChrist

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    Is your vocabulary limited to only one definition for the word 'for'? There are many definitions for that word. Note the ones I bolded for you.

    From Dictionary.com:

    for [​IMG] // [​IMG]", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FF02%2FF0277100.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); // ]]> [​IMG] Audio Help /fɔr; unstressed fər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr; unstressed fer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –preposition 1.with the object or purpose of: to run for exercise. 2.intended to belong to, or be used in connection with: equipment for the army; a closet for dishes. 3.suiting the purposes or needs of: medicine for the aged. 4.in order to obtain, gain, or acquire: a suit for alimony; to work for wages. 5.(used to express a wish, as of something to be experienced or obtained): O, for a cold drink! 6.sensitive or responsive to: an eye for beauty. 7.desirous of: a longing for something; a taste for fancy clothes. 8.in consideration or payment of; in return for: three for a dollar; to be thanked for one's efforts. 9.appropriate or adapted to: a subject for speculation; clothes for winter. 10.with regard or respect to: pressed for time; too warm for April. 11.during the continuance of: for a long time. 12.in favor of; on the side of: to be for honest government. 13.in place of; instead of: a substitute for butter. 14.in the interest of; on behalf of: to act for a client. 15.in exchange for; as an offset to: blow for blow; money for goods. 16.in punishment of: payment for the crime. 17.in honor of: to give a dinner for a person. 18.with the purpose of reaching: to start for London. 19.contributive to: for the advantage of everybody. 20.in order to save: to flee for one's life. 21.in order to become: to train recruits for soldiers. 22.in assignment or attribution to: an appointment for the afternoon; That's for you to decide. 23.such as to allow of or to require: too many for separate mention. 24.such as results in: his reason for going. 25.as affecting the interests or circumstances of: bad for one's health. 26.in proportion or with reference to: He is tall for his age. 27.in the character of; as being: to know a thing for a fact. 28.by reason of; because of: to shout for joy; a city famed for its beauty. 29.in spite of: He's a decent guy for all that. 30.to the extent or amount of: to walk for a mile. 31.(used to introduce a subject in an infinitive phrase): It's time for me to go. 32.(used to indicate the number of successes out of a specified number of attempts): The batter was 2 for 4 in the game. –conjunction 33.seeing that; since. 34.because. —Idiom35.for it, British. in (def. 33).
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    Buy yourself a good dictionary. Remission means more that pardon or forgiveness.

    re·mis·sion [​IMG] // [​IMG]", "6"); Audio Help /rɪˈmɪʃ[​IMG]ən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-mish-uh[​IMG]n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.the act of remitting. 2.pardon; forgiveness, as of sins or offenses. 3.abatement or diminution, as of diligence, labor, intensity, etc. 4.the relinquishment of a payment, obligation, etc. 5.Medicine/Medical. a.a temporary or permanent decrease or subsidence of manifestations of a disease. b.a period during which such a decrease or subsidence occurs: The patient's leukemia was in remission.
     
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