Is Calvinism's "Total Inability" and Biblical Hardening Compatible?

You do know it is another "grave" sin to lie about someone repeatedly.

 

It is perfectly clear that neither Cornelius nor Lydia were saved before Peter and Paul spoke to them.

C and L were 'God fearers.' That simply means that they were non-Jews who attended the local synagogue. Cornelius did lots of good deeds but probably no more that the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12. Maybe God had already put Cornelius under conviction of sin; maybe not. But he had not put his faith in Jesus Christ which is why Peter was sent to preach to him. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.' Not otherwise. While Cornelius and his family were listening, the Holy Spirit came upon them. That surely suggests that He hadn't come before, and, 'If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His' (Rom 8:9). Therefore the Spirit must have come first and opened the hearts of Cornelius & Co to trust in Christ for salvation.

As for Lydia, we hear that 'The Lord opened her heart.' What does that tell us about her heart before God opened it? That's right! It was closed.

As for the expression 'hardening,' I think Skandelon and others are making too much of it. There are only two classes of people; the saved and the unsaved. God saves some and not others. 'Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens' (Rom 9:18). There isn't some strange third realm where God neither has mercy not hardens. In this context, hardening means simply leaving folk in their unsaved condition, dead in trespasses and sins, with hearts of stone (cf. Ezek 36:26).

Steve

 

You don't know what you're talking about. I've quoted him and his rebuttal of Dr. Bob, with his objective.

Concerning salvation we are incapable. Your friend set out to prove otherwise.

Go back and read what they said. Dr. Bob said we can do no good concerning salvation. Winman argued that he is wrong and set out to prove we are capable concerning salvation, which words were the platform of the argument. Win is misusing Cornelius as proof.

This is where I get the "good ol' boys" prior to salvation nonsense bleeding through this type of teaching. This stems from his theological deficiency. The Bible teaches a different state of lost man.

If you want to defend that theological position, then go for it. In fact, I think that is what you are doing.

Salvation isn't an invite for good ol' boys a la joining a lodge. We are lost, hostile toward God, enemies toward Him in our minds, in the kingdom of darkness, and at enmity with Him.

...until a work of Grace within our hearts.

 

I am reminded of the ole southern saying, "like a blind dog in a meathouse."

 

If you mean these two were unregenerate dead alien sinners, that's absurd:

....Cornelius...a devout man...that feared God...who gave much...and prayed... Acts 10:1,2

....Lydia....one that worshipped God....whose heart the Lord opened.....Acts 16:14

Quite the opposite. It is perfectly clear that God had already wrought [Jn 3:21] within the hearts of both, BEFORE they came to the light.

Incredible. Cornelius, described as a DEVOUT man, who FEARED GOD, who GAVE MUCH, and who PRAYED, and you actually put him on that same level of the self righteous Pharisee depicted in Luke 18.

You do err here as does the majority of mainstream evangelical Christianity when you force 'saved' to mean the moment of the birth from above and the acquisition of the free gift of eternal life. This is conversion (saved), the entering into the spiritual kingdom of heaven here on earth, not the birth of the Spirit. Only those who have [already] been born from above are capable of seeing and entering into that kingdom.

Once again, you do err here as does the majority of mainstream evangelical Christianity when you equate/confuse the spiritual birth from above [Jn 3] with the gift/baptism/empowerment of the Spirit. What's described here is no different than Peter's experience.

Peter proved his Spiritual birth here:

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven. Mt 16.

Peter was later baptized of the Spirit here:

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4

No, the fact that she was already worshiping God shows that she had been born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God, and her giving heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul in order to be brought into the spiritual kingdom of Christ was also of God.

 

Amen. I agree. Context of Acts 10-11 also show God teaching Peter how He saves gentiles, and they also by good works show this work of Grace within their hearts. Other passages show this also, as you've provided.

- Peace

 

A while ago I started a thread on the subject of 'elongated regeneration.' I couldn't find anyone who agred with me so I let it drop. As I wrote, it is quite possible that God had started a work in Cornelius' heart, but Mormons and JWs fear God are devout, give much and pray. It doesn't mean they are saved.

The Pharisee prayed, tithed, and kept various commandments (Luke 18:11f). I will deal with 'Fearing God' a little later on.

I don't know what you mean by 'mainstream evangelical.' FYI, I hold to the 1689 London Confession. I don't think we are in disagreement on this point. I wrote: 'Therefore the Spirit must have come first and opened the hearts of Cornelius & Co to trust in Christ for salvation.' Regeneration must come before faith. However, salvation comes when one believes on Christ, and this Cornelius and his household could not do until Peter came and preached to him (Rom 10:14).

Amen! Peter trusted in Christ. God the Holy Spirit opened his heart to receive Him.

I do not believe in a separate baptism of the Spirit post Pentecost. Every Christian has been baptized in the Spirit (cf. 1John 2:20).

Now on to Lydia.

What you don't seem to understand is that 'God fearer' or 'God worshipper' is a sort of semi-technical term meaning those Gentiles who attended the Jewish synagogue. See Acts 13:16 and also verses like Acts 13:50; 17:4, 17, where the word 'devout' is used. These people were not necessarily any more born from above than the Jews whose synagogue they shared. They needed to hear the words of life concerning Jesus Christ, and they needed, like Lydia, God to open their hearts to receive that word.

Steve

 

Jn 3:8 was no new phenomena. How else could there have been more of the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband? How else could have Gentiles who had not the law, have that law written in their hearts? For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're on about here, but I think we're also off-topic. If you want to discuss John 3:8, why not start a new thread, or maybe read http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/the-new-birth-5-the-way-of-the-wind/

Steve

 

My understanding on this doctrine is that man still has the means to think, see God in nature, can make up God in mans own image, by the gact that man will see that God exists , but in unable to "understand" God as he is, and what the Gospel is, unless God graces him to permit him to be able to do that!

 

Absurd? No.

Unregenerate? Yes. They were religious. They were sincere. They were men and women of good works. But sincerity and religiosity will not get you to heaven. Many Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims have both of those combinations--sincere religious people who do good works. But like Cornelius, they knew not God, that is, Christ.

One cannot be regenerated without knowing Christ--doesn't matter if you are a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist: You cannot be regenerated if you do not know Christ.
Cornelius did not know Christ. Case closed.

The only positive thing that we can say about any of these people is that the Holy Spirit may have started to work in their hearts, perhaps convicting them of sin. This would be especially true of Cornelius. The account says that he was devout. Devout to who or what? He was probably a convert to Judaism, and had heard the Word many times. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The Holy Spirit also works through the Word of God. Thus God may have started a work in his heart via the Holy Spirit working in Him. But if he did not know Christ he could not have been regenerated.

 

And the story of Cornelius proves you wrong. He was not saved, the scriptures say so. Yet he was devout, he feared God, gave much alms to the poor, and prayed always. He was hardly hostile to God.

Your position is not scriptural, is is based on a man-made theology. As I said before, your argument is not with me, it is with the word of God. Cornelius was a very good man before he was saved, the scriptures say so, not me.

 

even though all of us are sinners by birth and choice, there are differences in how we all act...

Some do good works, others are killers...

He is a perfect example on One that god had chosen to be saved, as he was sent Apostle Peter by God, in order to hear the Gospel and be saved....

God had been 'working" with him, and had provided him botht he grace and the Gospel in order to become saved!

 

As I have said many many many many many many many........ times Total Depravity does not teach that man is as evil as he can be. So yes, man can be "devout...." yet not be saved. He does all these things outside of faith in Jesus Christ.

 

yes, think that this is where Non DoG christians have a mistaken belief on just what Depravity is from the Bible...

NOT that we are all evil and do only bad acts...
its thast we can do good works, can have 'religion" practice Golden Rule etc...

just that we cannot come to Christ being fallen apart from the work of God on our behalf!