Is Calvisnism Gnostic

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Revmitchell, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    The claim has been made more than one on this board. While I disagree with much of Calvinism this claim seems to be simply an over the top accusation with a spurious foundation at best. I have found no credible scholarly sources that support such a notion.

    I believe that the accusation at best is nothing more than inflammatory demonization rather than a reasoned critic.
     
  2. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,632
    Likes Received:
    158
    Read Philip J. Lee's Against the Protestant Gnostics.

    Other sources



    You can find much more by doing some research.
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,927
    Likes Received:
    96
    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
     
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    Nothing you have posted is either new to me or scholarly in nature. But they are caustic and rather sophomoric. They have no credibility what soever.
     
  5. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    What do you consider credible? One can simply do a Google search and see that Calvinism has been associated with Gnosticism by many. Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine, and Augustine was both a Manichaen and Gnostic for a period of his life. Many scholars have written that Augustine was greatly influenced by both Manichaen and Gnostic teachings.

    You can deny that those who claim Calvinism is founded upon Gnostic teachings is credible, but you cannot deny that MANY have claimed this.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    You need to source your quote.
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    That particular quote came from this article;


    http://www.gospeltruth.net/aug/sinsofaug.htm

    But simply Google Calvinism Gnostic and you can literally find dozens of articles all associating Calvinism with Gnosticism.

    http://www.libraryoftheology.com/writings/calvinismarminianism/TheGnosticismOfCalvinism-Lavender.pdf

    http://orthodoxbridge.com/response-to-robin-philipps-are-calvinists-also-among-the-gnostics/

    http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/neo_gnostic.html

    I could list dozens more. So obviously this is a serious question.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,080
    Likes Received:
    49
    Would say that calvinism is based/founded upon the views of the Apostle paul, and the Lord jesus...

    You can freely disagree with HOW we have intepreted what they said regarding salvation method, but NOT that it was not based on the Bible itself!
     
  9. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0

    No, I would not. I believe that Calvinism REVERSES what Paul taught. Calvinism often teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Paul taught in scriptures. I have pointed this out dozens of times, you know that.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    As I said before these links are not new to me. Anyone can create a web page and post their views. That in and of itself is not compelling. Neither is having multiple people share the same view.

    Please show me a scholarly paper published only after having been sourced by anyone in theological circles. Written in a format such as MLA, APA, or Turabian. Not just web sites created by any old Tom, Sam, and Harry. They are nothing but poorly written opinion pieces.
     
    #10 Revmitchell, Feb 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2013
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,927
    Likes Received:
    96



    Ahhhh, Thank you, thank you & thank you!:applause:
     
  12. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not going to do your homework for you, do a simple Google search and you can find dozens of articles associating Calvinism with Gnosticism. You can decide for yourself if any of these articles are scholarly. I get the impression you will dismiss them all.

    Again, Calvin's greatest influence was Augustine, and many scholars agree that Augustine was heavily influenced by Manichaen and Gnostic beliefs. If you choose to disregard this truth, that is your choice.
     
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    If you are going to make the claim then you have a responsibility to back it up with credible sources. I cna promise you one thing that is a scholarly source written in a scholarly format is presented it will be considered.

    The point I am making is that there are no credible sources who holds to this inflammatory and sophomoric notion. Those who do hold to it are only wanting to find the most possible and strongest means to demonize Calvinism and it is not honest.


    Making such a statement does not provide any evidence to your claim. And since you are not willing to do your own research but are willing to buy into anyone who makes a claim that looks most damaging to that with which you disagree then you are willing to be the water carrier for it.

    This behavior does not give an avenue for reasonable discussion but only works to poke a finger in the eye of those you disagree with. It is this type of junk that causes so much of the fuss on this board.
     
  14. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did not start this thread, why do I have to defend myself against your claim? You said you do not consider anyone who claims Calvinism is Gnostic credible. How am I supposed to convince you that a writer is credible, you can dismiss whoever you wish and have already.

    I might show you 100 articles from known scholars, you could poo-poo them all.

    Here is a page with many, many quotes from scholars, whether you find them credible is up to you.

    http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Articles/History.html

    It is like doubting Thomas, all the disciples said they had seen Jesus, but he refused to believe. I can show you a thousand articles relating Calvinism to Gnosticism, but if you refuse to believe you cannot be convinced.
     
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    Because you responded in opposition.

    I have made that clear already. Please see my previous posts.

    I have addressed this as well. Please see my previous posts.

    Yes this Jesse fella seems to be the primary source of this idea. When you do a google search on "is Calvinism Gnostic" in the first 5 or 6 pages most of the links go to him.

    But you cannot show me one scholarly article that is sourced in a credible format and would be accepted by say a Seminary professor.
     
  16. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,632
    Likes Received:
    158
    You are correct. Also Rev. never cites credible sources and almost never answers questions. He makes opinionated comments, but does not back them up.

    In this thread he began he gives his opinion, refuses to consider answers given, but does not give citations supporting his position ... whatever that is at the moment.

    Frankly I believe the whole subject is new to him as are the links and sources given.

    My reply will not receive a reasoned reply. I expect an insulting or attempted insulting reply.
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am not big on reading "scholars", I read and quote the Bible. But even I know that many have associated Calvinism with Augustine and his Manichaen and Gnostic beliefs. That is simple FACT.

    You know, if one or two people told you a UFO landed behind City Hall, you have good reason to dismiss their claim. But if thousands of people run by you all shouting that a UFO has just landed behind City Hall, I would begin to consider it credible.

    All you have to do is study Gnosticism itself and see how similar it is to Calvinism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
     
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    Now wikipedia good grief.

    While wiki is sourced no scholarly field accepts them as a legitimate source. And there are many reasons for that.

    You refer to other people who make the same claim as you but refuse to accept scholarly sources?

    A rather inconsistent position. And it is false that you rely mainly on scripture with regards to this issue.

    It is clear you cannot back up your claim in a reasonable way

    I have access to a couple of online scholarly libraries. I am going to see if I can find anything on this next week.
     
    #18 Revmitchell, Feb 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2013
  19. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that Wiki is not the most reliable source. That said, you can often find good information there. I simply showed that Wiki shows that Augustine was both a Manichaen and a Gnostic for years.

    I hope you do spend some time studying this subject, because then you will come back and admit that Calvinism was greatly influenced by the Gnosticism of Augustine.

    By the way, you should listen to that 2nd video by Jesse Morrell. I do not agree with everything he believes, but he is a very knowledgeable fellow who quotes many scholars in that video. Give it a look and see for yourself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhLF-llpFX0
     
    #19 Winman, Feb 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2013
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,332
    Likes Received:
    786
    I have already looked at quite a bit of his stuff.

    The bigger problem is whether or not Augustine was at all influenced by Gnosticism does not prove any relationship between Calvinism and Gnosticism. It is a week link at best.
     

Share This Page

Loading...