Is Election Conditional?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Jan 22, 2016.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    We have all tossed around the doctrine which I believe is biblical and there are those on here who say that yes I believe in election but it is conditional?... Is it?... Or unless someone on here convinces me otherwise election started in the halls of eternity among the three and one Godhead and God chose a people for himself before Adam sinned!... That is how I see it now... Romans 9 examines it in more detail especially verse 11 and other brethren can add their take on the matter its up for discussion... Comments... Brother Glen

    Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

    9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

    9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

    9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

    9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

    9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
     
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  2. SovereignGrace

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    No. God chose us before the creation of the world.[Eph. 1:4] It is He who calls, convicts, and converts. I rest in this.
     
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  3. JonC

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    Yes, election is conditional. It is conditional in terms of God's will.
     
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  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I agree Savior Conditional not sinner conditional!... Brother Glen
     
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  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Oops doubled posted... Brother Glen
     
  6. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian
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    Of course election is conditional.
     
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  7. MB

    MB
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    I believe that election was for the Jews only and only the Jews descending from Jacob. I have searched diligently for some thing in scripture that would prove Gentiles were elect also. However I have not as yet found even one scripture calling a Gentile elect. Or suggesting that a Gentile could be elect. It seems to me that some have claimed election for them selves Paul spoke of election but as far as I can tell only at synagogues where the Jews there were elect.
    This not to say that Gentiles aren't chosen. Certainly true that we have been chosen. You may say what's the difference? there is a lot of difference. The election of the Jews was for a special people to God. They were not all saved. Those who rejected Christ were lost as was Judas. There is only one way to God and Heaven and that is by Jesus Christ. By no other can one be saved. If any one can show with scripture that Gentiles can be elected or called such. I would appreciate it if some one would be good enough to show me.
    MB
     
  8. SovereignGrace

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    Bro. MB, Paul penned this under the Spirit's inspiration to the church at Ephesus...

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.[Eph. 1:3-14]

    The church at Ephesus was a gentile church and Apostle Paul they werealso included, as they were chosen in Christ before the creation of the world.
     
  9. SovereignGrace

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    Bro. MB, Apostle Paul penned this under the inspiration of the Spirit to the church at Rome...

    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all(us all is the church at Rome and conversely all believers...God's elect)—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.[Rom. 8:28-39]

    The church at Rome was a largely gentile church and they were also in God's electing love.
     
  10. MB

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    I know we are chosen. However still there are no passages that state Gentiles are elect. There is no way we can know that the Ephesus church was all Gentile. We know the first place Paul went to were the Jews at there Synagogue. If he started in a Synagogue where there were Jews then there would have been Jews in the church. As far as Rome it was also started in a Synagogue. Athens was started on mars hill How ever there are no letters to a church at Athens. Even though he spent quite a while there. I explained that I see a difference between elect and chosen. Because the Jews were elected first and there election was to be a people. The Jews had been scattered through out the world before Christ. And I know Paul loved his fellow Jews and still took the gospel to them as well.
    MB
     
  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I feel SovereignGrace gave you the appropriate answer... Brother Glen
     
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  12. SovereignGrace

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    How can we be chosen, but not elect?
     
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  13. JonC

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    The elect are God's chosen people. I believe that Scripture adequately presents Gentiles being grafted into this people, therefore Gentiles are elect. I understand the discussion between individual vs. corporate election but I am not very familiar with the view that Israel is the elect but the Church is not.

    In terms of election, do you view this distinction today (that God has two people groups, one elect and the other non-elect (yet elect or chosen as well)?
     
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  14. Revmitchell

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    The church is elected corporately not individually. We are elected "in Christ" under his individual election. His umbrella.
     
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  15. JonC

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    I agree that the Church is "the Elect", and I am familiar with a few views, just not that the elect excludes Gentiles. I am not certain where that position puts the Church.
     
    #15 JonC, Jan 25, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2016
  16. Revmitchell

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    Well when you unnecessarily parse non-differences between "elect" and "chosen" you are apt to come up with all kinds of weird things.
     
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  17. revmwc

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    2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    Peter stated here that our election is sure. We see who Peter was speaking too in verse 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    to receive by divine allotment, obtain,
    Election is sure for all those that have obtained like precious faith through our savior Jesus Christ. Now the interlinear states "to those chancing on Faith" the Greek word is "lachousin" to obtain by lot. So all who by Faith have obtained Salvation by Faith are elect
     
  18. Reformed

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    The election of God's elect is unconditional, i.e. it is not conditional on any act of the Elect.

    Ephesians 1:10-11 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, (emphasis mine)

    God is calling both His Church (corporately) and the Elect (individually). The former is made up of the latter, and are both called the same way.
     
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  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    it is not conditional on any act of the Elect... And that is where the two camps divide according to my post #4... IMHO!... Brother Glen
     
  20. SovereignGrace

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    Seeing you disliked 4(iirc) of my posts, where do you disagree with me? I ask because I am not sure of the thought you have expressed here, Monsieur.

    The church is the body of Christ composed of all believers, all His chosen, His sheep, His elect. Now, each and every one of them, including us, have each been called, drawn, convicted, converted and added to His body, the church. So where do you disagree with me? Merci beaucoup!
     
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