Is Faith a "WORK" even if its effectually produced?

I think you are under the mistaken assumption I am to the Greek language.
I am not and have contended both for fun, and seriously with those very learned in the Greek and even some with a Doctorate or two.

And yes, I CAN take you point for point on this subject (and Downings as well) and have done so here on the BB before (though not with Downing ). However, it would be nice from time to time to see 'you' actually defend your position and not just quoting everyone else or every Confession out there.

Downing makes many mistakes in his understanding above mostly however with presupposition and making the assumption of his view being validated by certain passages he indicates.

What can not be substantiated from scripture (and that is why is it contended against) is that faith comes from God IN THAT - God must give it to man because it is something he does not have. Like giving a bike to a kid who never had one. THAT is where this view falls flat on its proverbial face.

 

DHK,
that came from strongs.see the link I posted;

Man is NEVER said to be saved because of Faith

In scripture it is always said to be BY...or Through faith......never because of..

If you want help with the greek on it...Pastor Downing teaches it...so you could ask Him to explain the difference of

dia pistaios verses dia pistin {I am not sure of the spelling} but this is what is at issue.


Saving faith comes from the grace of God, from the realm of Grace imparted by God......man does not have it in him,unless it is granted ,or graced to him.

 

We know Dr. Bob and that is one of the reasons you are so confused concerning scripture. You don't seem to be able to accept what it says concerning the issue at hand.

NOTHING in scripture says God must 'give' a person faith cause they do not nor ever had it. Silly Bob.

 

Yes, and very few people who know Greek ever use or refer back to either Strongs or Thayers because they are very poor tools to use. They are good for getting a slim jist but not by any student of Greek or Hebrew who desire to be worth their salt.

 

This, of course, is not to say that man is not capable of doing good things in his life. The good Samaritan did good things, but this had nothing to merit regeneration, or saving grace. He just did good human deeds. Let's not confuse grace with good deeds.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Allan,

If you contact Pastor Downing, say hello for me, and I would like you to post your interaction for me, or pm me if need be. Allan....I think you will not be disappointed with your interaction....
I do notice from time to time, that you set aside, Owen, or Pink, or other reformed persons...{at least in your estimation}
That is okay in that they are only men,and as men can be mistaken.
You have a good degree of gift Allan,so I understand you believing you have truth in all these things...and I usually come away from our interactions, with something that can edify......I do think however that it is possible also that sometimes you are mistaken, and Owen, or Pink, or Downing have the truth,and you cannot quite welcome it ,at this time..

Let me know if you make contact,and how that goes.

Actually.....no

 

Agreed Jim

 

Faith is a work, but it isn't the work of man. It is the works of God that we have faith. The hearing of the word is what produces faith in our God. Faith is a gift. Man isn't capable of producing faith in God with out God's word. Actually man isn't capable of producing faith in anything with out being convinced of it. Calvinist don't think man can hear God's word with out being saved first. This is why they are convinced they are saved with out faith, instead they are saved to have faith even in something they have never heard.
MB

 

Here is another person and His article;
Into this marvelous grace of faith leading to access Paul speaks in the passage under consideration. The KJV is more accurate than other translations in expressing the Greek construction used by Paul and the last four words in the sentence are remarkable in their implication, “by the faith of him” (διὰ τῆς πίστεως αὐτοῦ). Διὰ is a Greek preposition meaning by or through. Τῆς is the definite article meaning the and as such denotes a specific or particular faith; viz., that saving faith supplied by Christ. Αὐτοῦ is a preposition in the genitive, singular, masculine case meaning “of him.” It is Paul’s use of αὐτοῦ that is striking. For had he intended to convey that access into the throne of grace was by a faith that finds its origin within the sinner he would likely have chosen a different construction of words, such as, διὰ πίστις ἐν αὐτω, meaning by faith in Him. Remarkably, this is the rendering offered by some commentators and Bible translators and apart from the possible intent of guarding or advancing a particular theological viewpoint in soteriology (i.e., the Arminian view that saving faith originates within man) it is difficult to account for it. On the other hand if the Apostle’s words are taken at face value then they harmonize perfectly with the rest of Scripture that declares faith is a grace gift of God and that Christ is both the author (originator) and finisher (perfecter) of that gift (faith). What Paul appears to be stating is that the Lord Jesus Christ is both the source of saving faith and the object of saving faith granting access, “by the faith of him.” It is the faith that He gives through regeneration that enables (or activates within) the sinner to demonstrate faith in Him, so that by Him, and through Him, and to Him is due all the honor and praise to the glory of God the Father.

http://faith-defenders.com/2010/07/christ-jesus-the-source-and-object-of-faith/

Allan,
The day will come Lord willing when passing through SD, I will invite you out for coffee,and will be glad to pray, fellowship,and study with open hearts and open bibles. i speak much, much faster than i type, and will be more than glad to give account for the hope that is in me.

I cut and paste,and try to offer some of the best teaching i can for you and all who read, many of these people are so much more graced and gifted than i am, i have all i can do to understand what they set forth in the scripture.
it is faster for me to cut and paste solid material in the mean time.:type:

 

I agree I 'can' be mistaken, but I need it 'proved' to me that I am.

Regarding the rest:

Sorry, but it is not my desire to sit and do this with every reformed person who I get carted off to, to make the case. You are the one desiring this debate so let's. You seem to also forget I can lead to God fearing Greek scholars who agree with my position as well.. I can have you contact one of them .. and then get back to me too.

By the way.. I do not 'set aside' Pink and Owen, and other Reformed men. I just do not agree with their views on some issues. Please do not confuse me with someone who only recently came to know of the Reformed view. I have deeply studied it for nearly 7 years seeking to know if what it held was truth. I did a lot of praying, reading and re-reading, evaluating, and second guessing myself and views. However in the end, by grace and mercy of my loving God he moved me away that view by revealing where it had hole and gaping gaps. Not all is wrong or incorrect, and in fact it blessed me greatly and solidified my views on much, changed some others, but by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the Word... showed me it's problems as well. God has used me, through that time and since to bring many out of Calvinism through a thorough study of it verses scripture. I did not do so LOOKING to bring them out, but they asked me my thoughts and I would sit down with them (usually holding to a book by Pink, or Owen, or another Reformed writer of yesteryear or present date) and go over the reformed view and then go back to scripture. I will also state proudly that some however, through our study, came away even more established in their view Calvinism and we agreed to disagree and are still great friends and work together for Kingdom of God.

I am not here to disprove Calvinism to all the Cals, this is a debate forum, and I am here to enjoy godly debate. Not convince people they are wrong and I am right, but to give an answer for what I believe based solely on scripture. That is what I do.

 

Actually, its that BOTH God and man is at work here in the salvation process.
man cannot believe/receive Jesus as Lord except by the Holy Spirit doing His work to open up/grant means to hear , than we are able to exercise faith in a saving way...

God elects are given ears to hear/heart to believe, than exercise personal saving faith in Christ....

Happens at same time, flip side same coin!

 

Thats why i like you brother!:wavey: In Kansas Now, one more delivery in lawrence, then will post more later..

 

I am all for it, come on up!! I miss good fellowship.

However remember that this is a debate forum and you need to give your views and establish it from your perspective, otherwise we could just have a cut/paste war whereby no one will actually be interacting. Nothing whatsoever wrong with quoting scholars and such occasionally, however if you engage the conversation, we need to hear what 'you' believe and listen to you articulate that belief. Many of us are very well read and those books did not convince us.. however it might just be 'your' wording that opens the door for the Spirit to work.. or vise-versa

 

There isn't one sinner that can be elected with out Christ.


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If this verse is true we are only chosen In Him not with out Him. So to say only the elect can hear the gospel is rather ridiculous they would have to be saved before faith. No one is saved before Faith. Regeneration is being saved. It’s being renewed. It receiving a heart for God. There is nothing in scripture that says all men cannot here or they are elected first before Salvation. Yet there is a verse that says the Gentiles will hear it.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
MB

 

just saying that In Adam, ALL have inherited/received spiritual death and sinful natures, so that unless God allows us to be able to respond, we will stay away from Him... Our natural state is at emnity with God, war with Him...

repentance and faith to me are at same time, so every regerated heart applies saving faith, every sinner saved thru faith has a regenerated heart!

 

I'm a Calvinist, but I don't accuse non-Cals of making faith a work. Mainly because I don't know any non-Cals who do believe that.

 

Bob, you know I would never question your faith.
But your theology, now that is another matter.
You have made some statements but have given no Scripture to back it up. Where in the Bible does God say he gives the unregenerate faith. I find this an untenable position. Faith, in the Bible, is either a spiritual gift (never given to the unregenerate), or fruit of the Spirit (also never given to the unregenerate). How can faith, therefore, be given to the unregenerate when in the context of the Bible it is only given to believers.

General faith all people have. I am not speaking of intellectual assent, but confidence, trust; the way I trust my wife. Often she is the object of my faith. When I got saved Christ became the object of MY faith. But the faith had to be my faith. God gave me the choice, and it was I that had to make the choice whether to believe or not to believe on him. God did not force salvation on me. I did not put God's faith in Christ. I put my faith in Christ, and therefore am saved.

 

Gal 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Phil 3:6,9

Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Now why am I introducing the law with Faith ? Because there is a big difference between Righteousness by Faith and Righteousness because of our Faith !

You see if one is made righteous before God because of their Faith, then they are made righteous out of the Law, mans act of Faith. Righteousness out of the Law, and righteousness out of mans act of faith or believing are of the same kind or principal. In other words, if one says they are Justified, made righteous before God because of their Faith, they may as well say, they are justified before God or made righteous because of their works or baptism or keeping the Law.

The word law is the greek word nomos and means :

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

a) of any law whatsoever

1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God

a) by the observance of which is approved of God

2) a precept or injunction

3) the rule of action prescribed by reason

b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents

c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love

d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

To make it simple the Law or law is any command or injunction whatsoever. Its not limited to the law of moses.

Faith is described even by Christ as an act of law keeping along with mercy Here Matt 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Notice, these ought ye have done ! or to do or to perform.

So no question faith is a performance by us, something we do, in fact its the keeping of a command 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ

Now remember what the definition of law nomos is a command !

So, those of you who insist that one is made righteous before God because of their Faith or that you are Justified before God because of your act of Faith or believing, you are in essence saying what the bible condemns, and that is you are Justified out of keeping the Law, and so doing and believing you are a debtor to keep the whole Law, for Christ died in vain for you Gal 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:3

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

This does not only apply to circumcision, that was just the issue there in Galatia, that some were being seduced into believing that their sanctification is not complete unless they keep the law and be circumcised, which if conformed to, would only show that they have not trusted in the Finish work of Christ for all of salvation, and something Else by them must be done.

So thats the underline principle, whenever we believe that something else by us must be done in order to have complete and final Justification before God, whether it be baptism, circumcision, yes even the act of believing, we have fallen from and frustrated the Grace of God, and seek salvation as it were by the works of the Law..