Is faith a work part deaux

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by npetreley, Mar 25, 2003.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

    1 Thessalonians 2:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

    Revelations 2:19 "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first.

    And a very interesting one...

    2 Thesallonians 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    And I can't help but wonder if Paul had a prophetic vision of arminians when he wrote this...

    Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

    ;)
     
  2. Ray Berrian

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    npetreley,

    Thanks for the reminder of those important verses; it was interesting to see them in one collection, if you will.

    When God sent His Word, I personally think, that he did not have Arminians or Calvinists in mind. He was perpetuating His own ideas and truth.

    I don't believe that faith is a work. And also, I believe that He wants us to maintain our faith in God as noted in I Peter 1:9 & 21. I hardly believe that it was God's faith given to sinners. Scripture seems to tell us that faith is our human response to He and His Gospel. [John 3:16]

    Regards . . .
     
  3. ScottEmerson

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    This doesn't say that faith is a work, does it? This is more along the lines of James' idea of "faith without works is dead."

    Faith pushes us to work just as love causes us to labot. Otherwise, you are saying that love is a labor for Christians, which is not the case.

    So is love a work? Of course not. God is making a list of things that the church possessed - works, love, service, faith, and patience. It doesn't even imply that faith is a work.

    What is the work of faith? Pisteo is in the genetive case - it is not saying that faith is a work, but that there is a result that comes from (or belongs to) faith. The Scripture is not saying what you say it does. What did you do? Search for faith and work in the same verse and copy it to a post?

    II Corinthians 10:15 talks about "your faith continuing to grow." How do you reconcile that with Romans 12:3?
     
  4. ScottEmerson

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    Is it the Church of Christ who calls faith a work? Just wondering...
     
  5. npetreley

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    This doesn't say that faith is a work, does it? This is more along the lines of James' idea of "faith without works is dead."</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I agree that's what is being conveyed here (and in some of the other verses, too). IMO, faith as it is portrayed by arminians is still a work, but I was just having some fun. The one quote that is, IMO, truly relevant is the last one from Romans 12.
     
  6. ScottEmerson

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    Who's been saying that? Shoot. I've been trying to dispel some of the Calvinists' misconceptions about Arminians thinking that faith is a work for over a year now... and now someone is ruining all that?
     
  7. Yelsew

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    The Faith (commonly held belief system) is a work.
    Individual faith is not a work!
     
  8. Frogman

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    You mean saving faith is not a work. Individual faith can sometimes be no more than the commonly held belief system, this system then can sometimes be founded upon works in some aspect or the other.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    npetreley,

    Arminians do not believe that faith is a work; if faith were a work then it would be in conflict with Ephesians 2:9 which says in effect that salvation is by grace, 'Not of works, lest any man should boast.'
     
  10. npetreley

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    I did not say that arminians believe (present as part of their doctrine) that faith is a work. But the way arminians describe faith in soteriology makes it a work whether they admit it as such or not.
     
  11. Frogman

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    Perhaps I should read some of Arminius' works. Bro. Ray has already informed me he believed in perserverance of the saints. I had thought Arminians were of the belief that this was error unless the 'believer' continued in works.

    If this is the case, the argument that works do not merit salvation (from that camp) is defeated as it requires an arsenal of works to endure.

    At the least, this view certainly sees the work of Christ as a 'shelved' commodity only available when faith is exercised, this leads me to believe the reliance is on something besides the full completed work of Christ, but is focused on the 'faith' of the individual to make this work real.
    Were they to see the truth of God regenerating the lost through the Spirit and enabling the lost to believe, IMO, they would strengthen their position.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  12. ScottEmerson

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    Arminians have never believed such. Arminius nor the Remonstrants said such a thing. The fact that you say that Arminians description of faith "makes" it a work shows just how little you truly know of the theological system. My guess is that your only resource for learning these things is from Calvinist works, for I have seen some works (though not all) by Calvinists who echo your thoughts. However, read the source and you will see that this is not true.
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    Brother Dallas,

    Just a small but an important correction. I said that I believe in the eternal security of the true believer, but not 'perseverence of the saints.' The concept of perseverence surely demonstrates the belief that unless you continue to the end of your life you will not be saved in eternity. This is most clearly a concept that means Christians are saved by faith and kept by their efforts or good works. The Apostle Paul kicks this idea well out of the theological arena in Ephesians 2:9. ' . . . not of works lest any person should boast.'

    The born again person is kept by the Lord through His intercession at the right hand of God in Heaven. [I John 2:1-2] He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He will never forsake His own people who have had faith in Him. [Hebrews 13:5 d; I Peter 1:4-5]

    A Christian, however, is challenged to maintain good works [Ephesians 2:10] thereby demonstrating that he or she has been adopted into a new family. [Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5]
     

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