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Featured Is Glorification Certain for the Justified?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by franklinmonroe, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    James, you're being rude. Franklin was asking straightforward questions that inexorably lead to just one biblical answer. What is it?
     
  2. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    I wasn't necessarily trying to be rude.

    I started offering a view, which upholds the context of Romans 8-11, and also sees Paul's thoughts thru those four chapters as flowing seamlessly.

    See posts 2, 5

    Then, in post 7, frnklinmonroe said that my view sounds more like sanctification rather than glorification

    So in post 9, I explained that there are two ways to look at sanctification, and started to tie in this line of thought as it relates to a biblical view of glorification

    But apparently, OP seems only interested in picking from options A and B. See post 11, where he thanked me for my reply, then continued along his original line of questioning.

    That's all I was getting at. If he's only interested in the views which thoroughly misrepresent the issue, I'll step aside

    I'd love to continue. But not if I'm just talking to a brick wall. I just figured I'd ask a very pointed question to see what the OP is looking for.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God would have Elected them beforehand out to be saved by death of Christ, so His predestined Will would be the direct causal agent it would seem...
     
  4. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Actually, I think you're jumping ahead a bit. I am trying to establish the meaning in these verses. After that we could try to define the terms.

    Is not this text attempting to state that all that are justified are glorified? That all that are predestined are called? That all that are called are justified? Is there something here in this text that would indicate that only some are?
     
    #24 franklinmonroe, Aug 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2014
  5. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Is not this text attempting to state that all that are justified are glorified? NO

    That all that are predestined are called? YES

    That all that are called are justified? YES

    I've been dealing with these issues in our Wednesday night bible study. The very first thing I pointed out is that Paul had one seamless line of thought through 4 chapters (8-11)

    HOWEVER....There are several ways this cat must be skinned:

    Context
    Word usage
    Phrase usage
    Parallel passages.

    The biggest problem is that the context cannot be seen without comparing parallel passages, word usage, and phrase usage

    The parallel passages cannot be readily noticed without understanding the context, plus the different ways in which the same thoughts are expressed in different words and phrases.

    We FIRST spent six weeks on Romans 10:9-13, which is in the same full line of thought. After spending that time in chapter 10, it became much easier to demonstrate where Paul was coming from in chapters 8-9, and predestination as it relates to glorification

    I was challenged in another thread to demonstrate my view of chapter 8, and I have mulled it over for two weeks. I also stated there that this is not a small endeavor.

    Also, it takes me about two days to get one posts prepared on such an in depth topic. I just don't know if our ever-impatient mod has it in him to leave the thread alone long enough to get it done.
     
  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    The verbs in question in Romans 8:30 are aorist indicative active. In other words they are actions that have the effect of continually taking place. This means that those who are justified have been justified, are presently justified, and will be justified. Paul used this type of language to communicate the certainty of his audience's predestination, justification, and glorification. These things are so certain that Paul could write in a way that communicated they have already taken place, even though they will not be completely realized until the eternal state.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes... a very helpful post:wavey::wavey::thumbs:
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would that tie into paul stating that right now we are seated in christ in the Heavens then?
     
  9. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You mean this passage?

    Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

    Yes. The word for 'seated' is also an aorist indicative active tense.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Which takes us back into the truth all saved get glorified, as to God irs already a done deal, but to us, has to be worked out in our time frame...
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    No! In fact it is a simple question and can be answered directly from Scripture, some of which Rippon quoted.

    Romans 8:28-30
    28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    After reading the OP again I see you answered your own question. There really is no room or reason for debate!
     
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