Featured Is God a Moral Monster?

Wes, if babies die sinless, they make it to heaven w/o any grace. A graceless entrance to heaven?

 

Evan, John, or whatever you'd like to be called: Please get an admin or mod to change the wording of your header. It is downright horrible. Maybe you could change it to Some People Charge God of Having Wicked Traits or something like that. As it stands now it is horrid and should be brought down ASAP.

 

Maybe change the title to "Vinmanism", or "Wanism", or what both of them are, "confusionism"?

 

If they never sinned, they need no repentance. What does someone who has never sinned need to repent of?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Paul is speaking of Jacob and Esau here when they were quite alive in their mother Rebecca's womb, and he said they had done no evil.

If Jacob and Esau had died in their mother's womb, what would they have needed to repent of?

Do babies die in their mother's womb? Yes, many millions or even billions of babies have died in the womb or shortly after being born.

I believe this is the 99 sheep that never went astray and need no repentance Jesus spoke about in Matthew 18 and Luke 15;

Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Jesus spoke of 99 sheep that did not go astray here. I didn't say that, Jesus did. Did Jesus say nonsensical things? Did Jesus speak idle words?

And we know Jesus was speaking of little children in Matthew 18;

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Jesus repeated this parable in Luke 15;

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Here Jesus speaks of 99 just persons which need no repentance. Again, did Jesus speak nonsense? Did Jesus speak idle words?

But note how there is not as great joy for these persons who never went astray and need no repentance. And note how the elder son who never transgressed his father's commandment at any time complained that no celebration was ever made for him.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

Jesus said this elder son never transgressed his father's commandment at any time. Does Jesus speak nonsense?

But note, there was no celebration for this elder son who never went astray.

No, the celebration was for the prodigal who went astray and became lost and dead, and was now alive AGAIN.

31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Did the father rebuke the elder son for boasting he never sinned? NO, he called him "Son" and said, "thou art EVER with me". This elder son was not lost.

But note the prodigal is alive AGAIN. Jesus said this twice in this parable. This refutes Original Sin that we are born dead in sin separated from God. The prodigal was not born dead, and he was not born separated from this father. He became dead and separated when he willingly and knowingly chose to go out in sin.

But folks refuse to listen to Jesus himself.

 

Absolutely agree.

 

You seem to think "entrance into heaven" is the only thing Jesus died for.

There is also that little thing called RESURRECTION. You know, that's only on account of His death and resurrection. He's the first fruits of resurrection.

His death atoned for not only the inner man (spirit), He died to redeem the outer man (body of death).

So a baby, even with an innocent inner being, is still wrapped in sinful flesh which needed atonement, and will be raised on account of Jesus.

 

People Call God Vile Names.

 

Icon had the best one!

 

Flesh is not sinful, or else Jesus would have been sinful. He took part of "the same" flesh and blood as us.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus was just like us in every way. Folks who deny this are denying that Jesus came in the flesh. We are warned that this is the spirit of antichrist in 1 John 4:1-3.

God cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15) Why? Because he was made flesh, and the flesh naturally lusts against the spirit. The flesh simply desires to please itself. But flesh does not become sinful until we fulfill our lust in a sinful way.

It is not wrong to have sexual desire as long as you contain it within marriage as God designed. The moment you take that same desire outside of marriage it becomes "sinful". If you fulfill your natural sexual desire within marriage, then your flesh is not sinful (of course, this includes thoughts as well), but if you fulfill your natural sexual desire outside of marriage then your flesh is sinful.

It would be more correct to say babies are born with "corruptible" flesh. Our bodies break down and corrupt, this is because of the curse.

But even in heaven it seems we will require the leaves of the tree of life for "healing".

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Of course, only those who believe on Jesus are given the right to the tree of life.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The tree of life seems to counter any corruption of our bodies.

 

There is no scripture which says that flesh makes anyone a sinner.

Yes, and Romans 8:3 says "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

Romans 6:6 says "knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin".


Romans 8:3 says "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

Yes. He was made like us in all things. Made to feel the effects of sin, which is death. He did die. And He was raised, the first fruits of resurrection.

Read this thread:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=92916

I started to get into an explanation of all those descriptors in 1Cor 15, as they relate to our resurrection body contrasted against our sinful flesh.

All the words Paul used to contrast - Dishonor (or shameful) vs glory, corruptible vs incorruptible, weakness vs power....all the former are used in relation to sin. We have weak, corrupted and shameful bodies because of sin.

And He was made just like us. Able to be tempted, just like us. And subject to death, just like us. All because of the one trespass which made all men to feel the effects of sin.

You seem to be trying to blend a Roman Catholic view of Original Sin into your view. It's the notion that a physical connection to Adam must necessarily make one guilty of Adam's trespass. they knew the implications of their train wreck. That's why they had to fabricate the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, to contrive an "out" for Jesus.

Seems like, sure. Honestly, I've not done a great deal of study along those lines. But I would probably be biased going into it, considering all the writings of Paul on sin, and the physical body, the resurrection, the fact that Jesus died to reconcile the whole of creation to Himself

"and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." (Colossians 1:20)

The resurrection will counter any corruption of our bodies - sown in corruption, raised incorruptible

 

I don't believe in Original Sin at all. And I don't believe our flesh is sinful at first, but becomes sinful WHEN when sin.

It is like saying I am wearing a "dirty" shirt. Yes, it is dirty now, but that is not the way it started out.

We are sinful flesh because we sinned, but it was not sinful at birth. David said of his body that he was fearfully and wonderfully made.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

What would be wonderful or marvellous about being given a sinful body?

No, the scriptures show we BECOME filthy or sinful, we are not born that way.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

If you were born rich, would you tell people you have "become" rich? No, because you were always rich. But if you were born poor and acquired wealth, would you tell people you have "become" rich? YES.

So, scripture does not show we were born filthy or sinful, but became that way when we sinned. Jesus never sinned, so he never had sinful or filthy flesh.

He never got his shirt "dirty", so he did not have a dirty shirt.

 

John,
It's quite ok. Winman and I are actually friends. We're not against duking it out on a few issues such as the sinner's prayer, and whether believing is an act of the will. Like I said once, debating can be brutal, even among friends and brothers.

One thing he's never done, however, is call me such a vile name as Arminian.

 

Psalm 139:13-16 is speaking about when God places the spirit of a man within him. The flesh comes from dust. That's what Adam was made from, and we were all "in Adam". Procreation gives us a body from our parents. But our spirit comes from God. This body of death is conceived in sin, but the spirit is righteous.

That's how we are all led stray - the spirit wages against the flesh. As each grows up, he becomes enamored with the things his sinful flesh desires, and he falls heading after them. To his own shame.

Sin causes death. If babies didn't have sinful flesh, then it wouldn't be possible for a baby to die. But in Adam, all die - even those who have not sinned in the likeness of his transgression


(see Zechariah 12:1-2, Ecclesiastes 12:7, Psalm 51:5, Romans 5:12)

 

Don't worry about it, John. I've committed far more heinous acts in my time. And I'm not "non-Cal" either. If anything, I'm "anti-Cal/anti-Arm"