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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Dec 6, 2011.
Can the Lord actually even regenerate one prior to them placing faith in Jesus?
How can you make someone spiritually alive who is still dead in all their trespasses and sins?
Your sins are not forgiven until you believe. Therefore you can not be spiritually alive until you first believe. It is sin itself that makes you spiritually dead, the wages of sin is death. Until your sins are removed through faith you cannot possibly be spiritually alive.
this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith?
How was it made able for the Holy Spirit to be received/given?
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. --------A noun.
Faith is what came to be when the Christ the only seed of Abraham to whom the promise was made, received the inheritance by promise, not by the law, and is that which enabled the Holy Spirit to be given. Before the faith came and after that the faith is come.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; How? verse 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
All promises from God are for the Christ. He is the heir and inheritor and we by the gift of the HS become joint heirs which we will inherit at his next appearing.
It was Christ, the faith who was regenerated and renewed with the Holy Spirit which he then shed on us Titus 3:5,6 Acts 2:32,33
Does not Acts 2:32,33 say God raised him from the dead, gave him the promise of the Holy Spirit which was then shed on us. Titus says the exact same thing. If I go not away the Comforter will not come. It was by the faith, the blessings of Abraham would be given to the Gentiles.
Or by hearing of faith.
to ADD: Faith is The resurrected Christ in you the hope of glory.
Can God create a rock He cannot lift Himself?
False once again
What do you mean how can "you" make someone spiritually alive who is dead in their trespasses and sins?
You can't and no one else can either.
The thing is you HAD to word it that way in order to arrive at your unscriptural conclusions and/or to maintain your unscriptural theology.
Why don't you ask that of God, it is the work of God, not of man. Your question here shows forth that you are yet again looking at this whole entire thing through the eyes of man, asking man how "he" can do it, and basing your theology on mans (your) reason.
They cannot be saved until they exercise their free will and accept HIM.
Absolutely. I can't believe he asks a man how he can do this. Unbelieveable.
Well, nevermind, yes I can.
I can't believe you can't understand this. What is it that causes spiritual death? SIN, correct?
Until your sins are forgiven and washed away, you are dead in your trespasses and sins, correct?
Then how can you be regenerate, that is, spiritually alive before your sins are washed away? You can't.
Regeneration cannot possibly precede faith, because until you believe you are still in your sins.
Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Do you understand what Jesus is saying here? Unless you believe you will die in your sins. So how in the world can you be spiritually alive until you first believe?
I think you folks understand this perfectly well. And I think you understand this refutes Total Depravitiy and all of Calvinism, but you will never admit it in a thousand years.
You can't be spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same time, it is impossible. Therefore you must first believe and have all your sins forgiven before you can be spiritually alive.
Why a duplicate thread less than 2 weeks after the other? Why not just continue off that one? This is whats known as spamming the board.
It depends on who you ask. If you define regeneration as, "the action of the Holy Spirit, whereby He transforms the lives of those given the gift of faith so they experience the "new birth" and salvation through Jesus Christ" then the answer is "yes."
Explanation: Before the spiritually dead person can exercise faith, God must do a work in the heart. That work is regeneration. The heart is "quickened" or made alive to the things of God. Faith occurs quickly thereafter. So quickly, in fact, that it is indiscernible from regeneration.
If I can put it another way; regeneration is a requirement of, and leads to, saving faith.
Thats one theory
The other is that there is no life spiritually apart from Christ and the new birth (regeneration) coincides with The life.
Isn't that what he just said? Could you clarify what you see as different?
Not too difficult a question. I am amazed at some of the answers that would make Pelagius blush.
"I must . .
"Man must . .
"You can't be forgiven until you . .
Unless God does it, there is no salvation. Jonah finally got it right (with seaweed tugging at his toga) when he said, "Salvation is of the Lord".
Is God able to regenerate a man prior to faith? Yessiree!!
Will He do it? Nope.....
And the verses to prove this are in Acts ch. 29, Isaiah ch. 67, Jude ch. 2, 1 John ch. 6, and Rev. ch. 23.
He needs to move under the bridge and stay with his cousin that is in "Three Billy Goats Gruff".
I am probably the minority at this point of considering regeneration as NOT necessarily coinciding or at the same time as salvation. It certainly doesn't FOLLOW salvation, but how long before salvation is indeterminate.
It is my opinion that there are examples in the Scriptures in which a person was given regeneration and then a period of time passed before the completed work of Christ took place in the person.
Earlier yesterday, I mentioned Saul on the road to Damascus. There was a space of time between the awareness of a superior being and his ability to accept the change in his life. He was struck out of the saddle, he cried out asking who did this, and then he was told to wait in town for more information. None of the other travelers heard and saw what Saul did and it wasn't the only time that a regeneration took place and then time elapsed. Some may say, "But he used the term, 'Lord'" But that wouldn't be unusual given that the term was readily used for any great authority figure. I hold that Saul was showing how humbled he was before a superior force.
I am convinced the Macedonian family was the same way. God implanted the regeneration into their hearts before Peter ever saw the vision.
The jailor for the Philippians would be another example. I'm convinced that the regeneration had taken place before the earthquake.
Each of these already NEW they were a sinner. It wasn't just some intellectual ascent, but a sudden deep awareness and conviction that changed their living. That indicates something new had entered them.
The Scriptures teach that a person in their natural state cannot have this experience, but it comes as God makes them alive by implanting a new creature. Remember, the prepared earth receives the seed and it grows to be harvested. Regeneration is preparing the earth - so to speak.
No, I don't think you're in the minority, seeing that probably close to 50% of the members on here are of the DoG flavor. The very moment a sinner believes from the heart, they are saved, given new life, a new birth(regeneration). Regeneration/salvation are used interchangeably.
Yes, that is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. To believe this, one is alive outside of Christ, and that's completely and patently false. Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and THE LIFE(John 14:6). In John 15 Jesus stated except you eat of My flesh, and drink of My blood, You have NO LIFE in you. That's strike one.
Saul of Tarsus knew from the very moment this happened who it was Who did this.
1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
He knew it was Jesus who had done this. So you're saying that someone can be blind, and yet have "life". A Spiritually alive person can see, because they have the Light and can see where they are going. If Saul was blinded, he was yet in his sins still. A person can not be blind and Spiritually alive at the same time. That's strike two.
I knew I was a sinner for years. So I was regenerated(given a new birth), and did not know it? Is that what you're conveying? I knew I was a sinner from the time I was around 16, and was saved at 36. Wow, I was given a "new birth" 20 years prior to being saved!?!?!?! But, I was not in Christ until He saved me, gave me His flesh to eat, and His blood to drink(Spiritually speaking), and He opened my eyes to see. It was then, and only then, I was regenerated. That's strike three, and you're out!! :laugh:
agedman goes back to the dugout with his bat in his hand, shaking his head. He was looking for the heater, and I struck him out with my "uncle charlie". :laugh: