Is God Cruel? God forbid!

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jul 8, 2007.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    It is often said that calvinism paints a cruel picture of God since He does not save everyone.
    But let me ask you this:
    In the free will argument, still some go to hell and those that do were withint God's power to save.
    He created them. He could have made it so that no one went to hell.

    It is like this:
    YOu see a cliff up ahead. You see your friend headed toward that cliff.
    You warn your friend but he does not believe you. You of course not wanting him to lose his freedom of choice to think that you are lying, you allow him to keep on going and fall off.
    IS THAT nice?
    Or is that cruel?

    On the other hand, there are 50 men on death row for commiting capital crimes.
    Some are muderers, others are rapists. Some have committed other hideous crimes.
    The governor chooses to give 29 of the 50 a pardon.
    Has the governor been unjust to the other 21??

    I think not.
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    Is this what God does?

    Was it GW.?
     
  3. Dale-c

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    It sounds a lot like what you say God does.
    That is, you say that no one is irresistibly saved./
     
  4. Brother Bob

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  5. Analgesic

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    Is it possible for a fallen human to change their fallen will by the power of their fallen will?
     
  6. Dale-c

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    Yes, against their natural sinful will. BUt at the same time He gives them a new heart. One that is in Harmony so that it is not with their new will.
    But that fact remains, if God wants to save a particular person, He can and there is nothing that that person or you or anyone else can do to stop it.
     
  7. Allan

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    That isn't a straw man THAT is dried grass use for the kindling of a straw man. :laugh:
    Dale - Have you really even studied the free will view.
    The argument you give is more accurately put:
    You see a cliff up ahead, and notice your enemy is hanging off the edge of it !! (why does it have to be your friend?)
    You climb down the beside him, and offer him grab onto you and to cling to you as you climb back up the cliff. He must trust you completely, in your power to do what you will say (faithfulness), in the your strength to over come and do what he can not do for or of himself (power), in your ability to climb that which is impossible (effectiveness). and so on and so forth.
    However, you will not force him since there is no trust when one is forced - only begrudging compliance. But you will (as Paul puts it) try to pursuade him, plead with him, and beseach him, by telling him (the gospel) truth of what you have done and are able to do. Yet, he must choose to believe or not. He is the one bearing the responsiblity of his choice to be saved or try to save himself.

    Does scripture not say that God rejects the prideful, but gives grace to the humble?

    If the Govenor could have pardoned all of them yet did not, but choose only a few to save. Then his Judgment was not only unjust but godless. Because he didn't save those he could have and had not reason to save those he did.

    The only biblical way that judge would be deemed without fault, is if those 29 of 50 met some criteria in which all of them could do. If they met this criteria it give the judge legal and Just grounds to negate the verdict given. (just like our justice system has in place now)
    Much like the criteria: "believe and you will be saved" or Do you believe I am able to do this?

    However, a judge is not God and the illistration is faulty one.
    It is a just sentence in which all men partake in the same fate since all men will do and be the same. But it is unjust to save some from that fate and not others just because you want to since justice demands all be given the same treatment. We are speaking here of Gods Justice, so if man sins then man MUST be judged the same across the board the same way or justice is a farce (unjust).
     
  8. Allan

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    So He forces a person to be saved. Against their will, He changes them to now follow His will. They have no choice in the matter at all, even as a saved person to Love Him. They are made to love Him, and love Him the must for they can not choose otherwise. :thumbs:

    This is what I mean by problems in the doctrine. You say a person can't choose to be saved, but at the same time a person who is saved can't choose anything either. All we do is ordered by God, to sin in any and every manner and to do righteously in any and every manner. That is not taught in scripture.
     
    #8 Allan, Jul 9, 2007
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  9. AAA

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    N/t..................................
     
    #9 AAA, Jul 10, 2007
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  10. AAA

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    Amen, Amen, amen.....

    God is NOT unjust to give some pardon and the rest not.....

    I do NOT understand the free will arguements, because even if GOD chose to give them (those that will go to hell) a chance to be saved they will still reject JESUS Christ because men is DEAD in their sins and therefore they can NOT make a holy choice, because their sin nature dictates that they will always chose against GOD....
     
  11. webdog

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    Maybe the reason you don't understand the free will side is because you believe this urban legend. Dead in sin means separation from God, plain and simple...not "they can NOT make a holy choice" (whatever a holy choice is)
     
  12. Dale-c

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    And I suppose a dead spouse can still make decisions, go shopping etc? Right?
    They are just "separated" from you right? And if they make a decision to, they can come back to you?
    I see, I get it now.
    Dead doesn't mean dead. It just means separated.

    I hope Johnny Cash decides to become undead, unseperated so that I can go to a concert.

    Seriously, that is pathetic.
     
  13. webdog

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    Let's use your flawed logic for a moment, ok?

    The Bible tells us that as believers, we are "dead to sin". According to you, we are totally unable to respond to sin. We are now perfect and sin free! Yipee!

    We cannot sin, now...can we, or does "dead" mean something besides a dead Johnny Cash corpse unable to respond to anything? Your reasoning that dead ONLY means unresponsive corpse is quite pathetic, and is NOT what spiritual death means.
     
    #13 webdog, Jul 10, 2007
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  14. Dale-c

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    Our natural flesh in dead to righteousness.
    Our Spiritual selves are dead to sin.
    We will not fully lose the "old man" this side of heaven.
     
  15. webdog

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    Now you're flip flopping. In the same sense you INSIST spiritual death means unable to respond to anything spiritual, "dead to sin" also HAS to mean the same thing...we are unable to respond to sin.
     
  16. Allan

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    We (before salvation) are 'dead' because we are IN sin or in a sinful state therefore we are dead TO or toward God. (we are seperated from Him)

    Now if your wooden literal meaning is accurate then you also have to reconcile why believers still sin. It should be just as impossible for believers to sin as it is for the unsaved to believe. WHY?

    Because scripture says in 1 Peter 2:
    As believers we are 'alive' because we are IN Christ, therefore we are 'dead' TO sin.
    Now if this is the wooden literal meaning as you applied it to the unsaved being 'dead, that means believers are incapable of sin because they are 'dead' to it, or better having no ability to do or think it.

    BUT... if it is metaphorically speaking of the spiritual here, then it must be applied the same manner not only here but also to the scripture "we are dead in our trespasses and sin" were it speaks of us spiritually as well.
     
    #16 Allan, Jul 10, 2007
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  17. Allan

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    That does not change the FACT that GOD said YOU ARE 'dead' (having no life) toward sin. Having no ability to do it. (by your definition of dead)

    If we can only do what our nature states then by your view, we can only do that which is righteous and holy as believers.

    EVEN IF your flesh desires otherwise, you CAN NOT go against your nature. Right?
     
    #17 Allan, Jul 10, 2007
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  18. Allan

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    editted out...
     
    #18 Allan, Jul 10, 2007
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